For many years, I didn't truly see the finished work of Christ as the gospel. I certainly said I saw it that way but, in reality, I saw the work of the cross more as a potential gospel. My view was that if people would ask God to forgive their sin, He would. If a person would pray to get right with God, He would answer that prayer. If somebody would come to God in faith, the great gulf of sin that separated her from God would be bridged.
It all depended on the person - his faith - her decision. I don't see the gospel of Jesus Christ that way anymore. The gospel isn't a sales pitch in which we tell people that if they'll do this, then God will do that. The gospel is an announcement of good news. When Jesus said, "It is finished," He really meant it.
We have been justified and reconciled to God by the finished work of Christ, not by a decision that we may or may not make. The good news of the gospel isn't that God won't count our trespasses against us if we come to Him. The gospel is the news that He doesn't count our sin against us because He has come to us! As the One who came to take away the sins of the world, He has dealt with the matter of sin once for all.
Does that mean that everybody is automatically a Christian? No, not at all. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ; one who trusts Him and is depending on nothing or nobody else as the source of his right standing with God. I have often said that salvation is the subjective experience of an objective reality.
God has done what He has done, whether we believe it or not. We have been reconciled to Him but it is in the believing that we begin to experience the personal benefit of what He has done. Our sin has already been forgiven, but that objective reality has no personal value to us until we believe it. The Father has accepted us. That's real. It's when accept Him that we see the beauty of His acceptance and are transformed. We love Him because He first loved us.
The Emancipation Proclamation was signed by President Abraham Lincoln on January 1, 1863, setting all slaves in the United States free. That was an objective reality. However, that didn’t mean they all experientially benefited from it. Shelby Foote, in his three-volume work on the Civil War recorded the response of one slave that revealed the mindset of many. This slave said, “I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout Abraham Lincoln, ‘cept he set us free. And I don’t know nothing ‘bout that neither.”
That man's experience mirrors that of many people today. Jesus Christ has dealt with the sin of mankind. Jesus Christ has set us free from sin's tyranny over us. That's an objective fact, but that doesn't mean everybody is living out of that reality.
One theologian was asked, "When were you saved?" "Well, I suppose it was 2000 years ago," he answered. What did he mean? He meant that the objective reality of salvation took place at the cross. Trusting Christ now doesn't bring something into existence. Instead, trusting Him now is simply a response predicated on the fact that we, at last, see what He has already accomplished for us and we now believe it! We begin to live in the reality that was brought into existence at the cross. We begin to enjoy today the subjective experience of an objective reality that was settled long ago.
Remember that faith doesn't make anything happen. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Those things are there already. They're just not seen. Through faith, the invisible reality that already exists becomes our visible experience. Through faith, the objective become subjective.
There's nothing left for God to do for mankind. He has already done it all. To proclaim the gospel is to tell people that it really is finished. To experience salvation firsthand is to believe it and live from the reality of His work on our behalf.
Wednesday, July 14, 2010
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Hi Steve, great blog. However, what you are saying seems to me like universalism. If everyone is already forgiven and justified whether they believe it or not, then that means everyone is saved whether they believe it or not, but this can't be true?? If salvation for all is an objective reality, and faith in Christ only makes this salvation 'experiential', then faith seems inconsequential and unnecessary, because the objective reality of salvation remains the same for all. I must have misunderstood, could you clarify? Thanks, Dan.
ReplyDeleteGood questions, Dan. One of the charges against those who teach this view of the cross is the accusation of Universalism. I'm not a Universalist but understand why you would raise that point. It's the same thing that happens when I teach freedom from the Law and people say it sounds like I'm teaching antinomianism or when I teach resting in Christ and people think it sounds like I'm teaching passivity. I'm not but to them it seems that way.
ReplyDeleteTo respond to your point - everybody is included in what Christ did at the cross. However,(and this is a big "however")it is necessary to receive/believe in order to experience its benefit. Consider the older brother in the story of the prodigal. His standing with his father was the same as the prodigal but his refusal to "accept his acceptance" by the father on the basis of sonship instead of performance caused him to stay outside in the dark. "All that I have is yours" the father told him but that didn't matter in practical terms if the boy wasn't willing to believe that reality and receive the benefits.
Contrary to faith being inconsequential and unnecessary, it is through faith that we experience the reality of the cross. Until we believe and accept the truth of His finished work, we're like the man with an oil field beneath his farmland but he either doesn't know or believe it's there, so he continues to live like a pauper. Just because it has been provided doesn't mean we are all living from that reality. Faith is the link that causes us to "come alive" to the reality of what He has done and enables us to live the life He came to give us.
I'll be talking more about this in the Sunday Preaching videos on my web site in the coming weeks. I encourage you to watch if you're interested in hearing more on this.
Blessings, Dan.
Thanks for your response Steve. Your teaching on grace has really been a blessing to me.
ReplyDeleteI think I understand what you are saying. I'm just waiting for it to sink in i think.
And yes I'll be sure to check out the Sunday Preaching coming up. I've been listening to the 'Freedom Fighters' series you did while back too, and its been a huge encouragement to me. Keep up the good work!!
Thanks again, Steve.
Dan.
Hi Steve
ReplyDeleteI had to add to my comment from your previous blog which also connects to this one. Another major change in thinking is about “Born Again”.
I found out early on in life that my parents had decided to baptize me when I was a baby. I was told this meant that through my parents I entered into the family of God and was now secure. It was their dong!
With the World Wide Church of God (time of Hebert Armstrong) I believed that I was a begotten child of God through my belief and baptism, so that I would become a full child after my bodily resurrection. It was my doing!
By the way this church now called Grace Communion International has gone through a phenomenal journey and is now not teaching separation but inclusion between mankind and the finished work of Jesus.
In the Exchanged Life ministries I was further taught about the existential belief of man that would open the doors of birth into the family of God. A believe action from man to God so that God could react, from the first Adam into the last. It was my doing!
In the Trinitarian belief where I now find my mind at rest, it was the Father in Jesus by the Spirit that has reconciled all humanity so that all are forgiven and redeemed in the humanity of Jesus. What happened to Jesus happened to all humanity. When he died, all died, when he was resurrected all were resurrected into spiritual union with him. It was and is all Hid doing!
It is not only a matter of union but communion, do we want to BE reconciled, and do we want to BE saved in the finished faith work of Jesus, a response to an objective reality. A universal exchange was made from the first into the second. This birth and decision came from Father, Son and Holy Spirit before there even was a single one of us. Will mankind universally accept this great news? Sadly I am told some will not, but not because the love of God is lacking. It is important to understand that God is not absent from anyone of us no matter what we believe and that He indeed uses all things for good. He loves all humanity equally without separation and discrimination in His Son. Do we want to trust and believe such great love? John
Are you saying that all of mankind is already saved, but it is only the Christians who can know and appreciate it, therefore, they become changed by knowing what God has done for them?
ReplyDeleteRyan - here's an excerpt taken from my Face Book page this morning. I think it addresses your question:
ReplyDeleteJoni Menard asks, "So 'born again' is when?"
Steve McVey answered:
"Good question, Joni. Let me ask you a question to illustrate: When did you show up on this planet? If you answer, "on my birthday," you wouldn't be wrong - but at the same time your answer wouldn't be exactly right either. After all, you were in this world inside your mother's womb nine months earlier.
So when as I born again? On the day I trusted Christ as a boy, but that was the subjective experience of salvation because there is certainly a sense in which I was "saved" when Jesus saw me 2000 years ago and took my sin into Himself. One is an objective reality (conception/the cross) and the other is a subjective experience (being born/born again)."
What you are saying is making more and more sense to me...and henceforth, God's grace is overflowing and the blood of Christ more precious! What a God! Thanks, Steve.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is making a little more sense to me and henceforth God's grace seems more overflowing and the blood of Christ is more and more precious. What a God!! Thanks, Steve
ReplyDeleteOk, I think I'm understanding. So you're saying that you, as a little boy, were already saved but when you came to trust God you only experienced the salvation that you already had?
ReplyDeleteSteve, excellent post! I so like the way you don't include a decision in being saved but you differentitate by saying you come to a point of receive/believe which is the proper transition to trust and faith being among those in a "subjective experience of an objective reality!" I as a boy of four could start to receive ministry from my Lord believing Christ's finished work 2000 years ago! Praise God this could catch on like wildfire! We need a reformation of grace! I agree with John's comment and so enjoy your remarks Steve as well and your explanations to the others with questions knowing you're: "airtight!" Have confidence, we need mo' grace talk to grace walk! Dave Candel
ReplyDeleteHey Steve, I've been enjoying your teachings for the last past month. At what point does the Spirit of God come upon a man, is it an event that takes place in ones life? Is their a certain feeling that comes along with recieving the Holy Spirit, or does the Spirit come in unnoticed, to where we have to question it's presence of being in us? How can one tell that the Spirit resides in them? I know that we must be born again of the Spirit, but does that happen at a certain point in ones life, or are we by mental confirmation of belief in Christ indwelt with Gods Spirit? I know that the bible says that for those who doesnt have the Holy Spirit in them, they are not the children of God. I also know that Christ said that whoever ask God for His Spirit, he'll be willing to give it. Help me to understand. I want to know with confidence that I'am a born again child of God.
ReplyDeleteThankxs!
Steve, as is sometimes the case, you both thrill me and terrify me with this post. Both your love for Jesus and your knowledge of scripture are beyond question to me -- but there is a part of me that wants to question anyway.
ReplyDeleteI admit, I love the idea of universalism, at the same time that part of me wants to scream, 'but its not scriptural!!' (common misinterpretations of 1st Peter notwithstanding). But I digress. So I will ask my questions bluntly:
1) If the Cross was for everyone, then why will some perish forever - or will they? Doesn't that mean it requires our response to be 'activated' for the sacrifice to take effect for us (for lack of a better word).
2) Phil 2:9-11 ('Every knee will bow...')...does that mean that it's not too late for those who already died?
I'm in the habit now of no longer taking everything I've ever been taught as the gospel truth, so forgive what may seem like silly questions. I realized by my third trip thru the bible that I could no longer afford to take any of the traditional church's teachings for granted.
Steve your blog here as usual is spot on!
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why "universalism" (at least, CHRISTIAN universalism, the finished work of Christ on the cross reconciling ALL to Himself) is such a "dirty word" to some. Have they not yet listened to the Master's teaching to love our enemies and do them good and not ill, to not pass judgment on others but pay attention to our own conduct, etc.? Do they still desire to see vengeance and punishment and revenge, harbor unforgiveness to those Christ has freely forgiven already, and other satanic attitudes? If so, how can they call themselves Christians? I don't get it. That's not love. That's not how my Master does it. He reconciled ALL to Himself. He is not willing that ANY should perish. If He doesn't have the power and sovereignty and absolute right to do HIS will, we are ALL in trouble no matter WHAT we profess to believe. And He has made it abundantly clear what His will is: none lost nor captive.
Hey Steve, I've been enjoying your teachings for the last past month. I dont know if you've received my questions the first time, but here they are again. At what point does the Spirit of God come upon a man, is it an event that takes place in ones life? Is their a certain feeling that comes along with recieving the Holy Spirit, or does the Spirit come in unnoticed, to where we have to question it's presence of being in us? How can one tell that the Spirit resides in them? I know that we must be born again of the Spirit, but does that happen at a certain point in ones life, or are we by mental confirmation of belief in Christ indwelt with Gods Spirit? I know that the bible says that for those who doesnt have the Holy Spirit in them, they are not the children of God. I also know that Christ said that whoever ask God for His Spirit, he'll be willing to give it. Help me to understand. I want to know with confidence that I'am a born again child of God.
ReplyDeleteThankxs!
Matthew - let me make sure I'm clear about this from the start: I am NOT a Universalist and do not hold their views. If somebody insisted on a label for me (which I know you haven't) I would most closely identify with Trinitarianism. Sadly, some who don't understand what that is will wrongly call it "Triniatarian Universalism" in the same way that some will call me an "Antinomian" for teaching that we are free from the Law.
ReplyDelete1.Our faith is not necessary for the objective reality of the cross to take effect but it is necessary for the benefits to be "activated" in our experience. God did forgive us, whether we believe that or not. However, if we don't believe it we can go into eternity without enjoying the benefit of that forgiveness.
2.This question is a great one which cannot possible be answered in such a short space. I highly recommend that you buy the book, "Her Gates Will Never Be Shut" by Bradley Jersak. You can copy this link and paste it in your browser to see the book on amazon.com.
http://www.amazon.com/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279142922&sr=8-1
I think the verse, "Love hopes all things" wouldn't be out of order on this subject although I also believe that any dogmatic view on the subject overruns the base. The answer to this question is not as clear-cut as we've been taught. I really do encourage you to get that book and see what you think.
Your questions are great ones and I commend you for asking them. Amazingly, in the religious climate of the modern church people are often accused of error or even heresy for even daring to question some of the viewpoints we've been told are absolute truths. The Bible is our absolute authority but somebody else' interpretation of it may or may not be correct.
Sincere and intellectually honest Bible students who love Jesus with a passion sometimes come to different conclusions. Rather than lash out at people whose opinions differ from ours, I think the appropriate attitude is one that acknowledges that none of us have all the answers down perfectly and we can learn from each other, even when we don't agree.
Bratchettd - I think the simplest way for me to respond to you questions is with a question: In what do you trust as your hope for salvation? Your works? Good works plus Christ? The church? Christ alone?
ReplyDeleteMoriah - you raise some great points. One reason I am careful to distance myself from that label is because even the phrase "Christian Universalism" is an umbrella under which there are many varying viewpoints, many of which I cannot embrace.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that the efficacy of the cross in reconciling humanity to God is universal and is an objective reality but the faith component is the link that causes the objective reality of Christ's finished work to become our subjective experience. Some "Christian Universalists" contend that His finished work is unilateral to the extent that even our faith becomes a work,and unnecessary. I don't agree with that at all. Faith is our acceptance of His acceptance. Nobody is drug into heaven against their will. If they were, heaven would be hell to them.
I agree that no one will be dragged into heaven against their will, but scripture also states that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess ... if that is not voluntary, then God has abrogated the free will He gave human beings right there. On the other hand, if it is voluntary, we have a word for that. We call it repentance and faith. And if it is universal, as scripture states "every" ... well, I will leave you to finish that thought.
ReplyDeleteMoriah, I know that your statement is to Steve and not me, and I know that my opinion is only as good as your's but if you will hear me, I will explain my view on that scripture.
ReplyDeleteScripture does in fact state that every knee will bow and every tongue confess, and you say that God supports our own free will but free will is also very limited. For instance, we do not often choose to die nor can we always choose to live; we do not choose many things because we can only choose the choices given to us. We know that our choices may be abundant in this life but you would also assume the next with out supporting scripture? It is then that I will give many possibilities on the single scripture you have listed. Perhaps those in hell do not have bodies so that their knees and mouths are non-existent; perhaps those who go to hell cease to exist so that only the ones left (those in heaven) would confess and bow; and what of the demons?--they must also confess and bow but Christ's salvation is only committed for man. Some of these may be silly and unbelievable but with what could you refute my interpretations of the single scripture? I say this because it is not beneficial to take a single verse out of the entire Bible's context. For to admit everyone's salvation is to declare Christ, Himself, a liar because He and His apostles admit many times in scripture that people do go to hell. But if salvation is even to exist in the first place Christ would not be a liar.
Now, I do not believe in a cruel God but if one's objection to my previous statement is that God would be cruel for sending people to hell then my response would be that Christ is not God then, the person who objected is. If God allowing people to choose hell seems cruel to one then the objector must simply state that they cannot comprehend the goodness of God because they do not always understand God's actions, but to say that God would be cruel then is to make God lower than their own pride for scripture states repeatedly that people do go to hell.
My object for my statement is never, ever to threaten people of he'll (for I am not some crazy old preacher who warns people of he'll every third sentence) rather my point is to deny the idea that all are saved.
Ryan, I am not basing my thought process on merely one single scripture. Just because I only referenced that one particular scripture does not mean I am either isolating it or taking it out of context. I am also not interested in getting into a theological debate on someone else's blog. My comments here were to share something I'm seeing with my friend Steve -- not to invite or incite contention and strife from others who read his blog.
ReplyDeleteHi Steve
ReplyDeleteI think that healthy dialogue is always a positive between people because none of us believe exactly the same as the other, we all see dimly, however iron sharpens iron. A few further thoughts! Father, Son and Holy Spirit have universally given salvation to all, otherwise it could not be grace, however not all will receive such a great gift and BE SAVED!
If I go to someone’s mansion and am led into the hallway by the butler I must wait and be received before I can come into the rest of the house. I know all analogies are poor but through the cross, into resurrection and ascension the Holy Spirit has been poured out on all humanity. In God’s timing he is in the process of convincing all of us of sin, righteousness and judgment, that we have been forgiven, made right, and do not have to judge others or ourselves anymore!
The first Adam is dead, the second, Jesus, is here, we all belong. The Holy Spirit is in the hallway, so to speak, and we must receive him, so that we can come to participate in all Christ’s life so that we may come to know the Father. It is by the faith of Jesus that we make this choice, for he is the Vicarious (High Priest) both from God, as God, to man, and from man, as a man, to God, without Him we can do nothing! The choice for all at some point is to trust and just let go of our own thinking and take on His mind. A renewal or renovation that I will struggle with for the rest of my life!
In the first Adam before the cross we had no choice because whatever Adam did all humanity did. In the last Adam, Jesus, whatever He did all humanity did! This is universal atonement from God to man! HOWEVER! As the Bible states sadly not all will universally believe by the faith of Jesus!
I used to believe to belong so that I could behave!
I now know we all belong, for without this belonging we could never believe, so that we may participate and behave in His workmanship! John
Hi Steve
ReplyDeleteThis whole subject excites me.
Here is something that I was asked a while back! What comes first, salvation or repentance? How you answer is how you view God! John
Hey Steve. Another great post. Thank you. God just taught me very recently about how everything is already done. I've tried to understand that concept for a few years but he broke it down for me in my language :) It's great news, really makes the Gospel great. But what I've found is the immediate reaction to such truth is to begin illogically expecting to experience the our salvation in the physical realm. How do you go on believing sick, for example, if healing is done? Even if I'm too chicken to believe the truth, denying it feels even worse. I can't lie to myself like that. Does that make any sense? This is all pretty new.
ReplyDeleteI used the word "illogically" b/c I have no natural reason to feel or believe or expect the things I do right now. It's clearly God's faith and I couldn't not believe if I tried. At least that's how it feels. At the same time I'm scared sh*tless b/c of these expectations and the way circumstances and really starting to look like I'm about to be out of choices. So that's where I am. Scared sh*tless but very happy for this confirming article. Thank you Steve. If you feel like it, would you mind praying for me?
Erna
Steve Enjoy your post
ReplyDeleteI think many people especially the inclusionists confuse redemption and salvation. God has redeemed, bought back all of mankind by the finished work of Christ. He has reconciled man but now calls us to be reconciled to Him (subjective experience as you call it) The call of the gospel is to persuade men that "they might be reconciled and saved" this comes by hearing the word and believing it with the heart.
The objective is redemption the subjective is salvation and so it is only those of faith who will have this imputed to them, not to open another subject but this is the truest understanding of unlimited atonement with both Calvinists and Armenians finding themselves in the limited atonement camp.
John- I most definitely agree with you as salvation is free for all to take, yet some will not choose it. You put it very well indeed!
ReplyDeleteMoriah-Strife and conflict are two things that I definitely do not want here or in other theological discussions, but if you are to call my attitude "satanic" I don't understand how are you avoiding strife. I am not trying to denote you as a person, rather, I was simply trying to explain my logic when you said "I don't get it" (in reference to my view compared to yours on your very first statement). Furthermore you questioned my Christianity ("If so, how can they call themselves Christians?") but you do not wish contention or strife? I am not seeking to insult you in any way nor create strife but simply and most fully to give an explanation when you say, "I don't get it." Furthermore, my desire is for Truth, THE Truth, not a debate. It is then, after I give a list of scriptures only in the four gospels that I would ask most politely for further explanation on your belief as to why people do not go to hell because I admit to not understanding your view either, though I do not maintain to question your Christianity, nor do I call your attitude "satanic".
The following verses are taken from the four gospels as words from our Lord on people going, threatened to go, possibility to go, or people in hell. It took me a few hours to find all of them so your reading through them would be appreciated as they are not my words, rather, they are words of absolute truth (logos of Christos). The starred verses are the particularly strong ones for my side of the discussion, and next to each verse I give a short explanation of it.
Matthew 5:20... the Pharisees and others are going to hell
Matthew 5:22... in danger of hell
Matthew 5:29-30... danger of being sent to hell
Matthew 6:15... those to do not forgive are not forgiven
*Matthew 7:21-23... (very clear) people go to heaven AND hell
Matthew 10:14-15... judgement for those who do not listen to the gospel
Matthew 10:28... God can kill the soul
Matthew 10:33... those who reject Christ, Christ rejects
Matthew 11:22-24... cities are condemned in judgment for rejecting Christ
Matthew 12:31-32... there is an unforgivable sin
*Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43... people are thrown into hell
*Matthew 13:49-50... people are thrown into hell
Matthew 18:9... danger of being put in hell
Matthew 18:34-35... forgive or not forgiven (parable on Matthew 6:15)
*Matthew 22:11-14... people thrown into hell
*Matthew 23:33... Pharisees are condemned to hell
*Matthew 24:48-51... unfaithful servant sent to hell
Matthew 25:11-13... people denied from heaven
*Matthew 25:28-30... bad servant sent to hell
*Matthew 25:31-46... (very clear) people are sent to hell
Mark 3:28-29... unforgivable sin listed
Mark 9:43-47... danger of hell
*Luke 12:5... God can throw people into hell
Luke 12:9-10... Christ rejects those who reject them; unforgivable sin listed
Luke 12:46... bad servant sent to be with the "unbelievers"
*Luke 13:24-28... (very clear) many will not enter heaven
*Luke 16:23... someone is actually in hell
John 8:35,44... some people are permanent children of satan
John 15:1-7... people are cut off from Christ
Well, I might as well join the discussion!
ReplyDeleteOne issue I have is the idea God´s work is finished, but at the same time, isn´t he actively pursuing us with His love to bring us to the subjective repentance and faith that brings us into his family? As you know, I have wavered back and forth in my thinking of universalism, what I have come to believe is that the conditions to be saved (faith/repentance) have to be met, but at the same time God does what He has to do so that each one meets those conditions, whether it be while we are left with a lot of life to live so we can walk in that salvation on this earth, or in the spiritual realm with that dying breath, that last gasp of life, when every person is faced with the thought "is this it" I believe God reaches into their lives in such a way that they are convinced to cry out to him. Has every single person in history met that condition? Only he knows, but as you say, his work to save is complete. At the same time, I don´t believe He has become inactive in bringing people to repentance. He knows what it will take to convince, and he brings those things to pass in our life, He loves us that much. So think this type of thinking will make us passive in getting the gospel out...what is the point? But Salvation now while on this earth is well worthy experiencing and when we have experienced it, we can´t help but want others to join in.
Ken
The Son of Man did not come to condemn the world, but that THE WORLD through Him might be saved.
ReplyDeleteYou know not what manner of spirit you are, for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw ALL unto Myself.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
God is not slack concerning His promise, but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
There are others. (I didn't bother with references since you are such a whiz with a concordance). Yes, destruction awaits those who oppose Christ but that is all of us in our natural (fallen) state without His saving intervention.
I'm not ignoring the scriptures you quoted, Ryan. They outline the problem. I am simply superceding them with the solution. Obviously there can be no resurrection without death preceding it as a problem and necessitating it as a solution. There can be no healing without sickness or affliction preceding it as a problem and necessitating it as a solution. There can be no deliverance without bondage and captivity preceding it as a problem and necessitating it as a solution. Christ is the solution, and it is not merely for some, but for ALL.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially of those that believe.
For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall the many be made righteous.
I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
I trust Him to know what He is doing and to be, in the end, who He was in the beginning and who He was when He offered Himself on the cross for sinners who were completely alienated and hostile in mind to Him and would have remained so had He not intervened.
Do I consider it a "satanic" attitude to portray my merciful, loving Master Who is eminently competent and powerful to accomplish HIS will and has all sovereign right to do so, as far less than all He has clearly demonstrated Himself -- in love through His sacrifice, in power through His resurrection and ascension -- to be? You betcha. Is that a personal slur on you? Sorry, nope. Do you get to manipulate me into silence by claiming it as such and thus impugning my motives, whom you have no actual knowledge of? Absolutely not, so don't even try. I held that view long before I knew you existed, and shared it before you objected, and I will continue to do so because it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with what my Master has entrusted to me, and you don't even FIGURE into that equation except as, just like me, yet another blessed recipient of this same grace which is the faith once delivered unto the saints and the reason for the hope that is within me. I am sorry you apparently chose to take personal offense at what I originally shared, but since I did not offer any, I cannot accept that as either my problem or my responsibility.
steve,
ReplyDeletei have heard you speak of this and seen you write on this several times. i've seen PAW do so as well. it seems you keep running into this problem where people do not understand you.
if i may, i think that you may mean this:
1) forgiveness is the choice of the One doing the forgiving; God does not require us to do something so that He can forgive us. forgiving us is a choice that God can make and it has nothing to do with us and everything to do with His character.
2) God already forgave everyone - past, present and future
3) though God already forgave everyone, forgiveness is not the same thing as receiving Eternal Life.
4) Jesus, Himself, is Eternal Life
5) Jesus does not force Eternal Life upon us; Jesus does not force Himself upon us; He does not force us to "know" Him intimately.
6) through faith, we allow Him into Union with us.
7) in that Union, we have His Eternal Life...we are "saved".
or, if it might help... :
1) forgiveness took us from a -10 to a 0. everyone has been forgiven.
2) accepting Christ takes us from a 0 to a 10. Christians have accepted Christ.
i hope that might help,
lance
steve,
ReplyDeletewhat i had written earlier was an attempt to clarify what you meant to say; i am not sure if it was close to what you meant... i hope you will one day lay it out the way i attempted to do for you; my words are certainly not yours.
operating on the assumption that it was close, i have some honest questions that i hope you will answer; i am very sympathetic to what i wrote before, but there are some lingering questions.
these questions arise from verses like Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:29; Matthew 26:28; Mark 4:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 5:24; Luke 7:48; John 20:23; Acts 8:22; Romans 4:7; James 5:15; 1 John 1:9.
from these scriptures, questions arise for many people. contraining myself to the first to points of what i wrote previously, why does it seem that scripture indicates:
1) God does not forgive unilateraly?
some sin or sins are not forgiven?
2) not everyone is forgiven already?
Jesus forgives a select few people during this 3 years teaching?
God seems to get upset by sin in the OT (odd if all sin is forgiven already)?
would you care to develop a very short set of bullet points on:
1) what you mean to day about forgiveness/salvation?
2) how you comfortably refute the usual interpretation of passages like the ones i mentioned above?
that would be helpful for me, and perhaps others.
regards,
lance
PS.
when people ask you about your soteriology, you seem to repeatedly indicate that you believe in 'Trinitarianism'. ...try as i might, i cannot find a soteriology that is called 'Trinitarianism'; would you please clear up what you mean?
I don't think you can separate Christ Himself from His work on the Cross; and even forgiveness and Eternal Life and subsequent union with Him separate with mere "subjective" and "objective" words on this side of Eternity. It's all 'in Christ.' We may be sure in salvation. GOD CAN TELL WHAT THAT MEANS and though we may have felt secure He makes the seal and final determination on heaven's entrants. We need God's still small voice and faith through grace for sure to live 'in Christ.' And abide in the Word, union with Him.
ReplyDeleteLance,
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean by "clarifying" what I've said. It's not clear to me if you're grappling to understand what I've taught or believe that although you understood it, others didn't so you're trying to help them or maybe you're trying to help me? Sorry, it didn't make sense to me.
As I move forward in the teaching in the coming weeks, I think I'll answer the questions you listed. So stay tuned! :)
As to the meaning of "trinitarianism," have you googled the word? I did just now and almost 87,000 sites popped up. I encourage you to check out the ones dealing with trinitarian theology if you'd like to know more.
Thanks for your input.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI think you are a skilled teacher and greatly enjoyed the Grace Walk book.
The primary thing I'm hoping for is one of three things...either (A) confirmation that those short bullet points I wrote are what you believe or (B) some editorial comments that correct those bullet points or (C) ripping up my bullet points altogether and creating your own from scratch.
The secondary thing I'm hoping for is a response to the lingering doubts in my mind that arise for myself and others, those doubts that we may -think- arise from scripture. I am very sympathetic to what you seem to be saying, however. Sounds like you plan to do something on that for the future.
A tertiary thing I'm hoping for is to clear up the 'Trinitarianism' thing. I probably misunderstood you...my guess is that we have different understandings about 'universalists', about 'Trinitariansm' or both.
...I had thought that 'Christian universalists' had a different soteriology, but still believed in the Trinity. And, I had thought that 'Trinitarianism' was mainly defined as a belief in the Trinity. Many Christian universalists believe in the Trinity, so I would call them 'Trinitarian'.
But, by calling yourself 'Trinitarian' it seems you were trying to differentiate yourself from universalists; I was left scratching my head.
Regards,
Lance
Gotcha, Lance. Yes, you are correct that all Christians believe in the Trinity, regardless of their soteriological view. What I referenced is a particular view of salvation that posits every person was included in the work of the cross and that the efficacy of that finished work applies to everybody OBJECTIVELY. (Forgive the all caps.As you know, there's no italics option on here.) However, in order to experience the SUBJECTIVE reality of salvation, faith in Christ is necessary. In other words, forgiven people can leave this world standing outside the benefit of that very forgiveness. Like the elder brother in Luke 15, they can go into "the darkness" of eternity although they have every right to be "at the party."
ReplyDeleteWithin my time restraints and the space limitations of a blog, I can't respond to every verse you cited in your post. I will say that we interpret those passages prior to the death of Jesus through a different lens than we do those texts written after his death. The New Covenant didn't begin with Matthew 1:1, but rather with the death of Jesus. So in order to "rightly divide" Scripture, we must keep that in mind with each verse as we interpret it. A basic rule of hermeneutics is context and there is no place where context is more important than when we're looking at either an old covenant or new covenant passage.
Did God forgive unilaterally? Yes, but again, that is an objective reality than can only have subjective value when we believe and appropriate it.
Your points about the ministry of Jesus and about OT passages fit within the answer I gave about understanding Scripture in light of the covenant to which it applies. For instance, Jesus was a minister under the old covenant, although he exuded grace in his life itself. His teachings were to an entirely Old Covenant crowd.
As to Trinitarianism as a soteriological viewpoint, keep watching the Sun Preaching. I will give a disclaimer in saying that I don't fully represent that viewpoint because I don't agree with every point they would profess. (For instance, I think many Trinitarians would believe we are still both simultaneously sinners and saints. I don't believe that.) Early on in my current Sun Preaching series, I said that this view would "most closely" reflect my views but it's not an exact fit.
I think that as I move forward, this position will make more sense to you so that you'll better understand my position on it. If not, when I'm finished and if you still have questions, I'd be glad to dialogue about it.
Thanks for your questions, Lance. I know that others would have the same questions as you.
Wow! I never saw so many comments on Steve's blog!
ReplyDeleteIt's good to see "disagreements" done with a little respect (although I didn't read every one).
Ryan - you do realise don't you, that in those verses Jesus did not mention hell at all, only Gehenna. The Jews understood this to be a place of earthly judgement, not eternal punishment.
I agree with Steve - I hate it if I get called a universalist, since there are many camps, and I don't agree with all the teachings. And with Moriah - that is has become a dirty word
Steve,
ReplyDeleteCould you post a link to some website where I can see this 'Trinitarian soteriology'?
I've looked and looked...can't find one.
Regards.
Lance - the risk I run in doing that is that people may assume that what somebody else has on their site clearly and perfectly represents my views. So, I'll offer a recommendation to a site and yet give this disclaimer by saying that what you find there may not express my views exactly. In fact, I do have some differences of opinion with some writers on the site (if I'm understanding them correctly) at the following link. For instance, I'm not clear if they hold to what Martin Luther called “simul justus et peccator” - "simultaneously righteous and sinners. I don't think we're sinners anymore. Some of what I've read on the wcg website causes me to think some contributors may hold that view.)
ReplyDeleteBut, having said that, I think this is a good site with much good information on it. Here's their overview of Trinitarian theology: http://www.wcg.org/lit/booklets/theology.htm
Lance - one more suggestion. Here's a great book by Baxter Kruger on the subject. It's a free download: http://dancinggod.org/
ReplyDeleteThank you, Steve; I found it quite helpful. I very much appreciate their soteriology. I would attempt to summarize it a couple ways:
ReplyDelete1) Trinitarian theology says that God unilaterally provides both forgiveness and new life to all people; humans just respond to what God did one way or the other and thus experience what God did or do not experience it, both now and in eternity.
2) Trinitarian theology is close to universalism. Both state that all people are forgiven and given salvation by God, unilaterally. However, where univeralism says all people will be in heaven with God, trinitarian theology says that people can still choose not to go to heaven.
I imagine you really thought all this through, but I just want to ask about this alternative:
God unilaterally provided forgiveness for all people; this is true whether we experience it or not. However, God did not unilaterally provide new life for all people; new life is only received by faith.
Why the difference?
I will try to say it in 2 ways:
1) I can forgive another person for what they did to me; my forgiveness will be real whether the person receives it or not. I can also offer the same person my intimate friendship, but cannot force them to receive it; the other person must accept my intimate friendship. Forgiving another is something that can happen with myself, but intimate friendship only happens when both parties choose it.
2) Just as God did not force Adam to not eat from the tree of good and evil, God will not force any man to eat from the tree of life.
Do you see what is unusual about both these soteriologies?
1) Trinitarian theology breaks the link between 'being saved' and 'being in heaven'...a 'saved person' can still choose to avoid heaven.
2) The soteriology I just mentioned breaks the link between 'forgiveness' and 'salvation'; a 'forgiven' person can still choose to not be 'saved'.
I find it quite fascinating, and tend to fall into the second (non-trinitarian theology) camp. ...Would you happen to know a name for the soteriology I just wrote of? Or a denomination who follows it?
Regards.
Lance - your alternative view sounds a lot like Trinitarianism to me. Where do you see diverging views between the two?
ReplyDeleteWell, yes, they do sound pretty similar, but I do see a difference. To many people, Trinitarianism for Universalism also sound pretty similar, yet there is a difference.
ReplyDeleteLet me try to explain again; perhaps it will be better this time.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
In both views, all people are forgiven already (whether they know it or not). The views differ on whether or not people have Life (people are fit for Heaven).
In Trinitarianism, all people are also given Life while on this earth. However, the person might not experience the Life while on this Earth, and might experience the Life as a kind of Hell in the afterlife.
In this alternative, all people are offered Life while on this earth, but only some receive it (Synergism). The people who do receive the Life might not experience the Life to the full while on this Earth, but will experience the Life to the full when in Heaven.
Thanks for clearing up the differences you were referencing. I see the difference and my view is more aligned with the Trinitarian view than the alternative you've described.
ReplyDeleteSteve,
ReplyDeleteI think you are saying what I believe. We are all God's children, and he died for everyone so that we may have a intimate relationship with him. However, it is our decision to want to have a relationship with father. He will always want to have a intimate relationship with us, but if we don't want to have a relationship with him then their is no way we can recieve the benefits from that relationship, because we don't want them. I completely agree! I do have a problem when some says that God will send those that don't accept this relationship to hell, because to me love does not condem someone to eternal torture, and God is love. I think our decision to not accept a relationship with God who love's us unconditionally is what puts us in hell. To me anyone with that relationship is already in hell. Isn't that the definition of hell is the absence of God? I have had one question on my mind, is God's free gift of relationship limited only to our time her on Earth, or does it still apply to those that have did before accepting this relationship. You know only the flesh dies at death, but or spirit lives on forever. I just find it hard to believe that someone that decides they want that relationship with their father would be turned away by him, even after their flesh has died.