Consider John: John is a believer in Jesus Christ. At the age of 14, he heard a guest speaker at youth camp teach that Jesus died for our sins and John believed what he heard. He prayed with a counselor at the end of that service and has never doubted that he is a Christian since then.
However, here are some things John does not know or believe:
1. That all of his sins – past, present, and future, have been already been forgiven because of the finished work of Christ on the cross. He has never been taught that and doesn’t know it. He thinks that only past sins were forgiven and that he still has to ask for forgiveness every day.
2. That he is a already a righteous person. John tries to become increasingly righteous by reading his Bible, praying, attending church, and other disciplines he has been taught are necessary for growing in righteousness.
3. That he is already holy. He would say, “I’m trying to be” if somebody were to ask him if he is holy. He doesn’t know that his holiness is because of what Jesus Christ has done and isn’t accomplished by what we do or don’t do.
Are these three aspects of the work of the cross true of John even though he doesn’t know or believe them? Of course the answer is, “yes.” (That’s called “objective reality.”) They are true of John whether he knows them or believes them or not. This is the “factual reality” of the matter. His complete forgiveness, righteousness and holiness won’t become a beneficial reality to him experientially until he knows and believes, but they are true nonetheless. Correct?
Now consider Jim: Jim doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ. He grew up in a moral family who didn’t attend church at all. Jim has never even heard one sermon preached. He has never given much thought to being a Christian.
Here are some things that Jim doesn’t know or believe:
1. He doesn’t know that his sins have all been forgiven. Have they? Is the forgiveness of his sins something that happened because of the finished work of the cross or must he believe it before the work of the cross is a success when it comes to the forgiveness of his sins?
2. He doesn’t believe that he is righteous. Is he? Must Jim believe on Jesus Christ before this aspect of the work of the cross is applied to him? Or is righteousness a gift he has received but doesn’t know it?
3. He would never see himself as holy. Is he? Was Jim included when God set apart those for whom Jesus died?
In the case of both John and Jim, it isn’t their knowledge or belief that causes what Jesus Christ did on the cross to be successful. When Jesus said, “It is finished,” He affirmed the victorious work of the cross was complete for all mankind; for every John and Jim in the world.
Christian John’s forgiveness, righteousness and holiness are real even though he doesn’t know it. Why? Because Jesus succeeded in what He died to accomplish for John. Unless and until John knows and believes these things, he won’t benefit from them but they are real nonetheless. They are factual realities even if he never knows them as actual experience.
Did the work of Jesus Christ on the cross only accomplish these things for the Johns of the world? They don’t know or believe they are fully forgiven, righteous and holy, but they are simply because they believed just enough to make these things happen for them at some point in life? Is that it?
On the other hand, are the Jims of the world are not forgiven or made righteous or holy until they come to that same level of minimal belief as the Johns? John doesn't know and believe he is holy but he is. Jim doesn't know and believe he is holy so he isn't? Is it the case that the cross of Jesus Christ was wasted on them because while the Johns of the world don’t know or believe the complete news of the gospel, they do believe just enough to make all these things real for them.The Jims haven’t believed the necessary information about Jesus’ death to have any of it be true for them.
Or is any of it true? Some Christians would say the Jims are forgiven already too. They just don’t know it. However, righteousness and holiness, they say, won’t be true until
Jim believes. So the benefits of the cross are piecemealed and divided into parts. One part is true without knowledge or belief (forgiveness), but the rest (righteousness, holiness, etc.) of the benefits of Jesus’ death require belief. The net outcome of the cross in this view is that it has partially affected everybody but won’t be complete until people believe. It isn’t really “finished” but is “being finished” one person at a time, as they believe.
What is the truth about the matter? The truth is that Jesus did what He did for all the Johns and Jims of the world. It is His finished work that has lifted us up from Adam’s race and adopted us in Christ. The success of the cross in delivering us from our doom in Adam is due entirely to Jesus! He did it all! It really is finished! That is the gospel we proclaim to the world!!
Does this mean everybody is a Christian? No. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ, one who has placed their faith in Him. However, those who haven’t believed are still included. They simply don’t know or enjoy the benefits. Hebrews 4:2 says, “The same gospel (this finished work of Jesus on our behalf) that was preached unto us was preached unto them also, but it benefited them nothing because they did not combine the truth with faith.”
It simple. They’re spiritually rich too, but unless they believe it they will continue to live as paupers. They will remain dead to the reality and live in an illusion that they are self-sustaining beings who lead their own lives apart from the Father, Son and Spirit Who have brought them into the Circle of Love and Life. They’re standing in The Light but are blind to it.
Let’s not insult the finished work of the cross by insisting that it is our vote that determines whether He succeeded or not. He did succeed. The only question now is whether or not we will live in His victory or in the illusion of our own independence. To do that is living hell – one that we can insist on in this world and the next if we so choose.
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ReplyDeletePhenomenal insights Steve! Brilliant! Thanks!!
ReplyDeleteI believe the Lord has been with us always and the Holy spirit, although I really felt it when I invited Jesus into my life. A new heart yes and will also change what needs to be changed by handing every part of your Life to Jesus, trusting to put everything as it should be. I understand that all our sins are forgiven but I still like to ask for forgiveness even though I know it's forgiven, acknowledgement is humbling
ReplyDeleteIt seems that no one needs to be born again, as people are all born again without knowing it. And going to heaven without knowing it. Have their names written in the book of life without knowing it. And are indwelt by the Holy Spirit without knowing it. In which case there is no point to preaching the Gospel, as people don't really need it, as it serves no distinct purpose, as everyone is saved by grace without knowing it anyway. In which case, there is no point in God turning up at any last judgement. - Makes perfect sense!
ReplyDeleteIt seems that no one needs to be born again, as people are all born again without knowing it. And going to heaven without knowing it. Have their names written in the book of life without knowing it. And are indwelt by the Holy Spirit without knowing it. In which case there is no point to preaching the Gospel, as people don't really need it, as it serves no distinct purpose, as everyone is saved by grace without knowing it anyway. In which case, there is no point in God turning up at any last judgement. - Makes perfect sense!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI still can't find any scripture that a Christian's future sins are forgiven at salvation. That doesn't seem to line up with pages of Christ's teaching on sin to His own disciples in scripture.
ReplyDeleteIt also goes against James 5
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
This book was written to Christians. Chapter 2 says 'have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons'. James doesn't say if the sick man has sinned, don't worry about it, because his sins were forgiven when he first trusted Christ. He doesn't even say they were forgiven at the cross. He says "The shall be forgiven him." That means before the elders came to his house, his sin still needed to forgiven. He may have had sin forgiven in the past, but this sin still needed to be forgiven.
The passage continues:
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. (NIV)
I use the NIV here, too because it uses 'sins'.
Why would James say to confess our sins to one another if we didn't have any when we confessed them? If they were already forgiven, why confess them?
The following verses make no sense either if the 'past, present, and future' stance is accurate:
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
(NIV)
This is about someone who wanders from the truth and racks up sins. He is in error. He is in danger of 'death.' His sins need to be covered. This exhortation is to the reader to be an instrument of God's grace in restoring such a person, leading him to forgiveness.
Fortunately, under our covenant with God, there is provision for forgiveness of sins. This was written to believers.
I John 1:8
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
(NIV)
Steve, You probably don't remember me. I met you in Waterloo ON, Canada. I love you, I pray for you, I have read almost all of your books. I have borrowed from your material often in my own teaching of the truths of Life in Christ. You have been given a unique "calling" to teach the message of Grace, and you've stayed true to that until recently. My heart is saddened. Even if you're wrestling with some issues of the Faith yourself (which we all do from time to time), why are you teaching such controversial issues, when you yourself haven't come to bible-based definitive conclusions about such topics? People look to you, they are influenced by you (whether you want them to be or not) and you are confusing them.
ReplyDeleteYou say you don't want to be labeled a "universalist", but it's blogs like this one that confuse the 'hades' out of people, because it sure sounds like you are!
This point seems so obvious that I'm reluctant to make it, but I feel compelled to. Salvation and ALL that comes with it - righteousness, justification, forgiveness, etc.- is referred to 9 times in the New Testament as a "gift". A gift by its own definition, is something that, when offered to you, you can either choose to accept or reject. Please show me one place in the gospels where Jesus forced anyone to accept His wonderful gift. The "Jim's" of this world, as tragic as it is, have chosen to reject the precious gift that God has provided for them and offered to them, the gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ. I presume you still hold to what you've written, and what you teach at your conferences, that we when we are born into this world, we are born in sin, that is we are born into Adam's life. Your blog overwhelmingly implies that at some point in his life, against Jim's will(or at very least, without Jim's knowing), God takes Jim out of Adam's life, and places him in Christ's life. Steve, I would like to know, WHEN does this happen? And if/when it does happen, how could it be that Jim has no idea THAT it has happened?
I believe as you, that God's love and grace is vast - more vast than we can imagine. However, if I cross the line to say that God exerts or imposes His will over and against my will, I've gone too far. Will He do EVERYTHING He can to draw me, to woo me, to "love" me to Himself - including but not limited to arranging for me to hear the necessary information(the gospel) I need to hear? YES, absolutely! But if I still reject Him afterwards, after He has done all He can do to draw me, will He IMPOSE His will of salvation, eternal life, righteousness, etc. on me? To say "Yes" would be heresy.
Paul O'Brien, Kitchener Ontario, Canada
Steve, You probably don't remember me. I met you in Waterloo ON, Canada. I love you, I pray for you, I have read almost all of your books. I have borrowed from your material often in my own teaching of the truths of Life in Christ. You have been given a unique "calling" to teach the message of Grace, and you've stayed true to that until recently. My heart is saddened. Even if you're wrestling with some issues of the Faith yourself (which we all do from time to time), why are you teaching such controversial issues, when you yourself haven't come to bible-based definitive conclusions about such topics? People look to you, they are influenced by you (whether you want them to be or not) and you are confusing them.
ReplyDeleteYou say you don't want to be labeled a "universalist", but it's blogs like this one that confuse the 'hades' out of people, because it sure sounds like you are!
This point seems so obvious that I'm reluctant to make it, but I feel compelled to. Salvation and ALL that comes with it - righteousness, justification, forgiveness, etc.- is referred to 9 times in the New Testament as a "gift". A gift by its own definition, is something that, when offered to you, you can either choose to accept or reject. Please show me one place in the gospels where Jesus forced anyone to accept His wonderful gift. The "Jim's" of this world, as tragic as it is, have chosen to reject the precious gift that God has provided for them and offered to them, the gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ. I presume you still hold to what you've written, and what you teach at your conferences, that we when we are born into this world, we are born in sin, that is we are born into Adam's life. Your blog overwhelmingly implies that at some point in his life, against Jim's will(or at very least, without Jim's knowing), God takes Jim out of Adam's life, and places him in Christ's life. Steve, I would like to know, WHEN does this happen? And if/when it does happen, how could it be that Jim has no idea THAT it has happened?
I believe as you, that God's love and grace is vast - more vast than we can imagine. However, if I cross the line to say that God exerts or imposes His will over and against my will, I've gone too far. Will He do EVERYTHING He can to draw me, to woo me, to "love" me to Himself - including but not limited to arranging for me to hear the necessary information(the gospel) I need to hear? YES, absolutely! But if I still reject Him afterwards, after He has done all He can do to draw me, will He IMPOSE His will of salvation, eternal life, righteousness, etc. on me? To say "Yes" would be heresy.
Paul O'Brien, Kitchener Ontario, Canada