Search This Blog

Wednesday, February 16, 2011

Should We Be Universalists? Trinitarians? Or Just Plain Nuts?

Mike recently asked on Facebook, “Steve, if u don't mind me asking, what made u not believe in the Universalist view, but the Trinitarian one instead? What is the major difference in their views? Thanks! God bless!”

Like Mike, many have asked and many more wondered about the teachings I’m doing these days. I believe my teachings now are simply a greater and more finely tuned expression of the grace I’ve taught for the past twenty years. I'd hope that anybody who teaches will have seen their views and content evolve over two decades. I will always teach grace and hope that, like my personal life, my teachings show a growth in grace over time. The Apostle Peter admonished us to, “Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Growth equals change. If we never change, we never grow. There’s no arguing that fact. Here’ my response to Mike’s question:


Thank you for the question, Mike. I realize that many people are wondering about some of the things I’m teaching these days. I’m happy to clarify here what I am and am not attempting to say through my teaching.

First, it is important for me to state that I can’t attempt here to speak as a representative of Trinitarians as a whole. Truthfully, I’m among those who aren’t wild about labels for the reason that seldom can anybody’s viewpoints be adequately defined by a label. I don’t call myself a “Trinitarian” but rather have said that these days I find myself more closely related to that position labeled “Trinitarian” than other positions that label themselves by name within the Christian community. I have learned much from Trinitarian writers like Thomas Torrance and his brother, James Torrance, Baxter Kruger, Karl Barth, C.S. Lewis, Elmer Coyler, Robert Capon, NT Wright, Brad Jersak, Robert Sherman, and others who don’t come to mind right now. I’ve also benefited greatly from some of the early church writers like Saint Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers. I’ve particularly appreciated many of the guests on Mike Feazell’s program “You’re Included” on Grace Communion International’s web site. While I find that I don’t agree with some things said or written by some Trinitarians, it’s the group I “feel most at home with” these days.

Over six years ago, I was introduced to Baxter Kruger’s book, The Dancing God. I was intrigued by his writings and found them to challenge my thinking. His book began a journey that led me to read everything I could get my hands on by both Trinitarian and Christian Universalist writers. (Not to be confused with “Unitarian Universalists” who don’t believe in the necessity of Jesus and His finished work.) I have probably read more books by Christian Universalist authors than some who identify themselves as Universalists. While I am not a Universalist, I have found many good things with which I agree among Universalists writers. In my opinion, Tom Talbott’s book, The Inescapable Love of God, is probably the best book on universalism that has ever been written. I read George MacDonald, Phillip Gulley, Gregory MacDonald, Martin Zender, Clyde Pilkington, Jr., Gary Amirault, Gerry Beauchemin, F.W. Farrar, and others. (In my opinion, one of the great causes of stagnation in growth in the church world today is our unwillingness to read those with whom we may think we will disagree or have been told by our peers that they are “wrong.” Have we become so insecure in our beliefs that we are afraid to be exposed to other views? It seems so.)

Comparing the writings of Universalist authors with the position of Triniatrian authors, searching out the Scriptures for myself, praying earnestly to “see the light,” and seriously grappling to know the truth (staying up all night many times, as my wife can attest), I came to see that, at the least, my understanding thus far had been incomplete. I knew that the Spirit was pulling me forward in my understanding of grace but didn’t know where I would find myself when the dust settled. To be honest, I was afraid because I knew that some wouldn’t like it when I shared with others the pathway down which the Spirit was leading me, but the reality is that when He leads us, we simply go. We don’t ask where we’re going and then decide whether or not we want to go forward. Nobody will ever progress that way. We just “forsake all and follow Him.” I simply want to understand God’s truth as He reveals it to me. To do that always requires an open mind and willingness for Him to change us.

Mike, you asked about the differences between Universalism and Trinitarianism. I’m not one who could do the best job answering that, since I’m still a neophyte when it comes to Trinitarianism. I will answer your question by giving you the reasons I am not a Universalist.

First, and foremost, I am not a Universalist because I have a difference with them concerning the matter of reconciliation. Many of the Universalists I have read suggest the idea of “ultimate reconciliation,” means that ultimately everybody will be reconciled to God the Father. Contrary to that viewpoint, my position, and that of Trinitarianism, is that everybody has already been reconciled to the Father through the finished work of Jesus on the cross. I understand the biblical teaching to be one, not of an ultimate reconciliation of humanity, but rather one of historical reconciliation - one that happened already. Paul wrote, “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them.” When and where did this happen? The fact is that it really happened “before the foundation of the world” but it found its expression in time 2000 years ago at the cross. It isn’t something yet to happen. It is something that has happened. See Romans 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:20; Col. 1:22. The reconciliation isn’t an ultimate reality. It’s a done deal or, to put it another way, “It is finished.”

Mankind’s problem isn’t that we aren’t reconciled to the Father. It’s that they don’t know. That’s why Paul said that God has “committed to us the word (message) of reconciliation. "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God.” In other words we proclaim, not a potential gospel but a pure gospel that “It is finished!” It isn’t being finished when you believe. You can believe it because it is already finished! You have been reconciled! Now be reconciled! In other words, "believe it!" (Like telling a guy, “You are a man. Now, be a man!")

The gospel isn’t some sort of existential news that becomes true because somebody believes. We believe it because it is already true. A blind man may not see what’s around him but it’s there whether he sees it or not. His subjective experience of blindness doesn’t negate the objective reality around him. A lost man had to be home to begin with or else there would be no reference point to give the word “lost” its meaning. “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound! I once was lost but now I’m found, was blind but now I see!”

A second thing about Universalists (generally speaking) that doesn’t resonate with me is their continuous focus on heaven and hell, to the exclusion of every other aspect of our faith. I readily admit that I may be wrong, but it seems to me that there is more talk about our ultimate destination than about our here-and-now destiny in Christ.

I understand the Universalist passion for inclusion and share 100% in their enthusiasm for that reality, but that inclusion is much greater than simply what happens when we die. Being joined together in the communal Life of our Triune God has staggering implications for all aspects of life in this space-time dimension in which we now live, however temporary it may be. I like how Trinitarianism focuses on the supreme importance of our sharing in the perichoresis(interpersonal dance) of the Father, Son and Spirit here-and-now.

A third thing about Universalists is that I don’t see the place for the kind of absolutism they, generally speaking, hold in their viewpoint about who ends up in heaven. I was a hardcore, nonnegotiable Calvinist for almost 30 years and I see the same kind of resolute insistence on the position of most Universalists that I saw and held as a Calvinist.

I understand that we all passionately believe what we believe, but many biblical topics aren’t as clear-cut as those who hold various viewpoints would have us believe. Immaturity causes a person to argue that he “just believes what the Bible says.” We all could say that, but the more pertinent question is, “What does the Bible mean by what it says?” That question is not as easily answered as rabid proponents of any position would have us believe. Maturity recognizes that Bible believers who show a high level of intellectual honesty, who skillfully use exegetical tools of interpretation and who trust the Holy Spirit to guide them still come to different conclusions.

I was a Calvinist because I could “prove it” from the Bible. I have seen the “Biblical proof” for Universalism and will say that both viewpoints are very compelling purely from an exegetical standpoint. (I am sure Arminianism has an equally strong biblical argument, but that’s one I haven’t studied in depth as I have the two I’m discussing in this article.) What are we to do when the Bible seems to clearly present more than one way to understand a matter? Do we go to war with each other in an attempt to see who can pile up the highest stack of verses? Do we argue that my verse has greater weight than your verse?

It seems that the better way would be for us all to hold our views with humility. There are indeed nonnegotiables in the Christian faith, but much of what we argue about doesn’t fall in that category. As Brad Jersak pointed out in one of his books, it’s not that the Bible tells us too little about some topics to form an opinion. To the contrary, it seems to tell us too much. We all tend to zero in with a hard focus on the verses that support our underlying position while the verses that would contradict our views seem to become a part of the fuzzy background of Scripture. It’s not that we ignore them, it’s that we honestly don’t see the verses that contradict our existing views.

I hope the Universalists are right that everybody ends up in heaven. Wouldn’t every Christian want that? “God is not willing for any to perish but that all should come to repentance.” Is it wrong for me to want the same thing that my Father wants? Does that make me a Universalist? Hardly. I suggest that perhaps a greater problem than the Universalists adamant insistence that everybody will go to heaven is the angry reaction from many Christians over the very idea.

There are texts that appear to stand in tension on this subject. In my opinion, that leaves us at the place where we may hope but would be presumptuous to insist that we know with certainty what happens with anybody after they breathe their last breath. Who knows what happens in that transient moment as one passes through the veil from this life to the next? There is no time with God, so how can we say what takes place in that moment when the spirit is separating from the body?

Who am I to think that I have such perfect understanding of Scripture, of the mind of God, of the heart of a man, or of how the eternal plan of the Almighty will unfold to brashly state how it will be – end of discussion.

I remember struggling with the Scripture and the Spirit very, very early one morning when I first began to examine the possibilities on this topic. I prayed in frustration, “Lord, why didn’t you make this easier to understand???” I sensed a gentle word that literally came into my mind answering, “I am not a puzzle to be solved. I am a Mystery to be explored.”

Therein, lies the answer. The flesh insists on definitive answers. The Western World thrives on them. But our God transcends our rational minds and refuses to be perfectly understood and rejects our insistence that we have indisputable answers to every question.

What are we to do then? The answer is to love. We are not to be known by our theology. We are not to be known by our answers to questions of soteriology, eschatology or any other biblical topics. And we certainly are not to be known by labels. They will know we are Christians by our love.

So that’s what I want to do. I want to love. I am not a Universalist but nobody would be happier if they’re right. While my views many not perfectly align with every Trinitarian, I love their proclamation of all of mankind’s inclusion in the finished work of the cross, a teaching I believe is completely biblical. They don’t, however, push further than Scripture warrants by insisting they infallibly know the eternal outcome of that reality for humanity.

All mankind is included in the finished work of the cross. That I believe. Beyond that, dogma becomes presumptious and not warranted. Love hopes all things. However, when any topic is riddled with biblical ambiguity, as I believe this topic is, humility must be the Siamese twin of hope. If that approach is wrong, just say I'm nuts.

52 comments:

  1. So is faith needed to be saved?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Excellent "response" to an honest but risky question. I've learned so much from Paul Young including offering Q&R instead of Q&A (responses vs. answers). Some seem to need or demand we give answers but they often are the first to challenge our "answer" with "Yes, but....." Blessings

    ReplyDelete
  3. Bravo...that was good. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Steve, good article....i have decided to throw out everything i think I know about God and start over; that is, i need to let go of what i believe because i was taught by man and ask God to show me the truth all over again; i have not arrived to the same conclusions as you in some areas, but i do know this right now.....the traditional church gets its view of hell more from Dante's Inferno than they do the Scriptures, and God is soooooo much bigger and Grace is so much deeper than we can ever imagine....if you look at the stoning of Steven, the Pharisees got raging mad when he said, "I see heavened open...." the legalist hate an open heaven and like a closed one....

    ReplyDelete
  5. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. We believe in His finished work and EXPERIENCE (CAPS=emphasis, not yelling:)the salvation He brought to us at the cross.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "Not a puzzle to be solved, but a mystery to be explored"...love it!

    ReplyDelete
  7. I like your emphasis on "experience" what has been done, Steve.
    Many have kept away from drawing near to Him (with open hearts) due to the misconception of who He is, what God's true nature is, and it is time we delve into the "serious stuff", grab the bull by the horns and wrestle this through. Thank God for voices like yours and for taking the courage it needs to "forsake all and follow" because that is what it takes (A vengeful "God" is not easy for people to let go of, especially if there's an unwillingness to let go of one's own vengeance against someone)
    The more "grace" is preached, the more the world will be prepared to see Him as the loving Father he is. I do salute you !

    ReplyDelete
  8. Steve, this may be the best presentation of the Good News I've ever read. Certainly some of your best work.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Yes I have held unversalist views but have recently come to see that the bible is not clear on the afterlife.
    I think salvation (as in SOZO) is about receiving and being reconciled here and now, on earth. I don't see any verse that says salvation means going to heaven when you die.
    At the same time I see no evidence for an place of monstrous suffering forever and ever and ever simply for not 'believing' (pretty subjective term) correctly by your dying breath.

    ReplyDelete
  10. you may be nuts - i may be nuts - but i appreciate what you have shared here.

    thank you

    ReplyDelete
  11. Call me naive...when I read "trinitarian" I immediately thought you were referring to the trinity doctrine...That God is a trinity. Obviously that is not what you are speaking of. I completely agree with your assessments, and have picked up more labels in the past year than I care for. You didn't really address what trinitarianism is...This is the first I've heard the label in this context.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Great blog... If we could understand God put him in a box he wouldn't be God now would he, he'd just be a stature on our mantle piece......Yes saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ amen

    ReplyDelete
  13. Good blog Steve - really some great stuff to think about. I have followed your video vignettes (Lies you hear in church every Sunday) and just recently bought the "52 Lies" book but haven't gotten into it yet. Do you address anything on Heaven and Hell in that book? I want to take a peak but I left it at my office so I'll have to wait until tomorrow...

    ReplyDelete
  14. One more thing..... I have always believed that in some sense God has already reconciled the world to Himself since Scripture is so blatant about this. However, according to my study of the concept "world" - it seems that this can refer to people groups (i.e. representatives from every race, tribe, tongue and nation) rather thank literally every individual. Then another position I have wrestled with is whether the gift (salvation/reconciliation to God) can be rejected on the basis of a person's will. In other words, the gift is already bought and paid for - but can be willfully rejected. Any thoughts on those two points of view?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Thanks Steve! This is an answer as Christ-centric as it can get. I once had to answer someone on Universalism and though my emotions will always say I "need" a real hell to await the abusers, for a sense that God didn't ignore the unrepentant abuse (due to a history of emotional and religious abuse in both my story and Charlotte's), but the only answer I was allowed to give by my heart, was a rather strange remark that those who hold this view must have incredible faith... It humbled me!

    ReplyDelete
  16. Thanks for this Steve, appreciate you keeping your promise to Mike and myself. Having recently debated the Universalist doctrine with some "hard core" but loving brothers, I've walked away with lots to ponder on.

    I'm not convinced that hell doesn't exist yet, but in the end I've had to conclude: God's plan is marvellous and still too big for my brain to comprehend.

    I've also asked God why He didn't just draw a clear line in the sand? Why can the scriptures be interpreted in ways which seem to support more than one viewpoint? Ha-haa, Bill Jonson calls Him "sneaky Jahovah" lol...

    Thanks again for this, you are a legend.

    In Grace
    Andre
    www.NewCovenantGrace.com

    ReplyDelete
  17. Steve, love your attitude and what you said about labels. Have a look at this translation: We don’t label people like we used to, with our handy pre-printed tags. We even tried doing this with Jesus, but He blew our definitions apart. (2 Cor 5:16 Word on the street)
    To label ourselves or others is normally just an excuse not to pursue relationship. To say 'that person is an Universalist' or 'I am not a whatever' misses the point.

    All the old fashions are now obsolete. Words like Jewish and non-Jewish, religious and irreligious, insider and outsider, uncivilized and uncouth, slave and free, mean nothing. From now on everyone is defined by Christ, everyone is included in Christ. Col 3:9 MSG

    So lets' translate this into today's context:

    All these factions are now obsolete: Words like Universalist, Trinitarian, Charismatic, Catholic, believer or unbeliever, grace-person or law-person ... all these mean nothing in the light of Christ! From now on everyone is defined by Christ, everyone is included in Christ.

    Don't look for excuses to disagree - see what motivated God to give Himself to every man (even before they had a perfect doctrine)

    Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do. And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with (Rom 14:1 MSG)

    ReplyDelete
  18. What a great write. It instantly resonated with my heart as it connected me with my walk. We are not Gods so we will be in a constant change of mind as the mystery is unfolded by the Spirit. In all this wonderful mind changes I have found myself opening my arms more and more to all humanity. Thanks again Steve for being pliable and receptive to the whisper of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as He continues to reveal Himself to all of us in His timing.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Steve, great read and great thoughts- especially your comments about God not a puzzle to solve but a Mystery to be explored. Looking forward to exploring Him together at LF conference this summer. (FB post)

    ReplyDelete
  20. For the last 3 months I have been in the struggle between what men have taught me and what the truth is. I just cant seem to grasp both sides to make up my mind and struggling with self condemnation which keeps me away from God. Any suggestions..

    ReplyDelete
  21. Jeremy - I'm very familiar with that approach to the word "world" and held the view for many years that Christ died for a small group consisting of the elect. He died for "all" but the word can mean "some of every type" as you've stated or it can also mean "every individual." A person's view on which definition is correct will depend largely on our view of God and who He loves. Does He love people from every nation or does He love every individual in the world? I believe the latter. He died for every person.

    As to your second point, reconciliation to God is a finished work of the cross. People can certainly reject the reality of that act and live in "the lie" that befell Adam - the lie of separation. If they do, even though, the gospel is true they will not enjoy the benefit of that reality. Hebrews 4:2 says, " For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also ; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard." So it is possible to be included but not experience the reality of that.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Anonymous9:35 AM

    And even faith is not from ourselves, but a gift from God.

    Embrace the mystery! Go ahead and say "I don't know."

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous10:07 AM

    Steve, I'm in awe that I've crossed your path. You are so full of knowledge, with the wisdom on how to present it in an acceptable fashion. Your teaching style truly does minister grace to the hearer. Each word wrapped in love. I have so much respect for both your gift and your tried experience. Thank you, my brother.

    Erna

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hello,

    Good post. I can see why universalism can be read into scriptures which talk about the reconciliation of God to mankind with the finality of the cross. All sin was placed on Jesus Christ on the cross but that does not alleviate the command to believe in Him. In order to be reconciled to God one must believe on Christ and if they don't they will be judged and reconciliation from God's point will be severed forever.

    ( KJV) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? {30} For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Universalism is nowhere taught in the scriptures simply because God reconciled Himself to mankind. That is only half of the bargain. If we do not reconcile ourselves to Him by belief in what Christ did on the cross then we are slapping Him in the face and saying, "I don't believe what Christ did" and therefore turn our backs on the greatest gift God did for mankind thereby judging ourselves unworthy of eternal life- .

    We are reconciled by the cross but that is only half the Gospel the other half is new life in the resurrected Christ which comes only by belief. One without the other cancels out both.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I cannot say how how much i loved what you wrote... I love your wonderful kind attitude in this writing. The more intimate i know God, the more i realize that i don't know anything: it is higher, further and wider than our minds can reach!

    Just a few things that made me jump up and down while reading your article:

    A lost man had to be home to begin with or else there would be no reference point to give the word “lost” its meaning. YES YES YES!!!!!

    I suggest that perhaps a greater problem than the Universalists adamant insistence that everybody will go to heaven is the angry reaction from many Christians over the very idea. I ABSOLUTELY cannot agree more. I am totally floored that Christians gets soooo angry about this. : )

    To be honest, I was afraid because I knew that some wouldn’t like it when I shared with others the pathway down which the Spirit was leading me, but the reality is that when He leads us, we simply go. We don’t ask where we’re going and then decide whether or not we want to go forward. Nobody will ever progress that way. We just “forsake all and follow Him.” this touched my heart so deeply. I can associate with this on so many levels.

    blessings!

    ReplyDelete
  26. Steve, great job as usual. I enjoyed reading it, it is such a blessing to know and be known by such a God.

    ReplyDelete
  27. This note is awesome Steve! Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I love this note, thank you so much!

    ReplyDelete
  29. Wowsers!! :)

    Beautifully written and graciously shared, Steve.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Alex,

    When I went thru that struggle I learned I was giving people the equal weight of authority as the Scriptures. Personally, I was being intellectually lazy by letting other people do my thinking for me. It was REALLY TOUGH to face my denial of truth about me. God literally sent me a sign in the midst of that wrestling match u describe: judge for yourself. I had to concede God has unique authority, & I have to heed His voice. Maturity is accepting that other people have other allegiances that interfere with heeding His voice. I am commited to purifying my allegiances. This is how this struggle played out for me.

    brettact2

    ReplyDelete
  31. Thats true Bret, I will have to check my allegiance and make a choice. While it is so much easier for me to hear mans voice over Gods gentle voice I have to get closer to Him to hear His voice better.
    Thank you all for the message

    ReplyDelete
  32. Thank you Steve. I not only loved the post, but so many of the comments as well.

    Why do people resist believing that we are already reconciled by the work of Jesus, a reality accomplished by God because of His great love for us, and not because of anything we have or haven't done? I think part of the answer lies in our human understanding of love.

    Once we have accepted that God really loves US, we, the individual, revel in that love. We luxuriate in it, as well we should. It is an amazing, life-giving,spirit-nourishing gift. It should inspire awe and devotion in us.

    But then to consider the idea that God loves the undeserving and the unconcerned with the same love(!), why in human terms that cheapens the love. We cherish our spouses precisely because they love us special over everyone else, and if we were to consider that our spouse had the same love for another would be treachery.

    Not so the love of God. His nature is Love, so that His love for us in not diminished by His loving others, even our enemies. This is hard to reconcile with our human concepts of love and loyalty that include and intrinsic us vs. them, or to put it more romantically, "you and me against the world, babe".

    I confess I still struggle with this, but it is a mystery to get lost in, as you wrote that the Holy Spirit said to you, not a puzzle to be solved. =)

    ReplyDelete
  33. Great article Steve. You always are a blessing. I am really glad to know of your ministry in this time of transition.

    Tony

    ReplyDelete
  34. Genuine question...if there is no hell, is the Gospel message worth dying for or even suffering as Christians? Isn't there 3 salvations 1. From the penalty of sin (saving faith) 2. From the power of sin (victorious life) 3. From the presence of sin (in heaven). Sounds like you believe in the first two, but you sound evasive like Rob Bell on #3.

    ReplyDelete
  35. what a monumental subject you have so beautifully penned down.

    ReplyDelete
  36. so if i understand you correctly...you believe that: every individual is forgiven, accepted and reconciled to God...however, in order to "go to heaven" people must receive this free gift (faith). God is saying, "here, take this gift...You are free, you are Mine...come to me" (grace).

    I understand you don't define "going to heaven" as the foundation of salvation...you stated that very well in your article...

    I am not a "universalist" (those darn labels again) but i wonder...if all God wants is for us to accept His free gift of being reconciled to us, then doesn't almost every "non-christian" believe that? I think most of them believe that they will go to heaven...yet, mostly because of their "good works."

    Then again...the free gift that He gives to us isn't just reconciliation...it is Life...more precisely...Jesus.

    OK...I think I just confused myself. And I may have contradicted myself a couple times too:)

    ReplyDelete
  37. I can see sometimes how universalism can grasp the imagination. Inch by inch deceiving. I see that it believes (grace) is enough but it won't leave the deception that does not unveil fellowship is a combination of God's historical intervening 2000 years ago and all that entails and our wills believing reaching out for God and His Presence through the Work of Christ on the cross. The Cross is a significant experience in history but so is my response that enables me by grace alone though faith alone to live the Gospel in fellowship today. There is so much scripture to back that sentance up. If we think of the Universalist as incapable of juggling truth I think we are right. Maybe they hurt but don' know the medicine is God Himself. The Life of the Spirit in Christ Jesus, the Gift of Heaven when we die if we're saved, the fact of Jesus being the same, yesterday, today, and forever, etc. can go a long way to wisely enable a juggling in us that is peaceful but for Universalists they don't see the sanity in that: pleasing to God in fellowship in us to which we're called in I Cor. 1:9 WITH THE SON ( emphasis, not shouting.) :-) He is a Faithful and True Witness Who transcends our existence but pours forth wisdom from above into us as well through the Holy Spirit in us, never to leave, nor forsake! It is truth's voice attached to Life Who is a Person, Jesus Christ!! Again I see Trinitarianism winning as I know the Bible backs it up! An error is a little lie mixed in with a lot of the truth but would you like a cockroach in your lasgna? I think not. Well brilliant organized thinking, well written thoughts on the Blog Steve. Dave C

    ReplyDelete
  38. Anonymous9:57 AM

    so much good stuff in there Steve, I wanted to copy and paste the whole thing to Twitter and FB but it wouldnt let me :) Thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  39. Steve......you have not only,as usual, answered the question superbly,and with great wisdom. but also opened up a wealth of potential insight and understanding for those of us who are trying to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.Thanks.Andre

    ReplyDelete
  40. Hi Steve, very early in my journey when I was struggling with grace I read Grace Walk, Grace Rules, and Divine Invitation. I used then for teaching, and the still occupy a space in my library. Your teaching and writing is always so hope-filled...in all our God-talk we seem to forget " grace "...that profound mysterious cosmic for that holds all reality together. The glue that holds the trinity together...with the gravitational force that draws all creation into it. Again, thanks...this was simply, exciting.

    ReplyDelete
  41. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  42. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Steve, this is all new to me, but it is beginning to make sense.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Steve, I like your exposition on the subject and I believe you had contributed to the debate greatly. One thing that I had a hard time in grasping is your idea of salvation. It seems to me that salvation for you is the realization that you are saved already (e.g. reconciled). As I read Scripture it seems to show that we believe to be made righteous (Rom 5) and not only to realize that we are already. Even though I would agree with you that Christ's death was inclusive for the entire world, it is only efficient for those who believe. I am truly open to hear your take on this and I do appreciate your comments about holding our position with humility.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Anonymous12:04 PM

    Distractions

    By: Fred Pruitt

    All that “What ism are you?” is basically distraction. Not that there is not truth or there is no error, but it is deeper than the ism one adheres to. It all goes back to person — how do I “know” God?

    Everybody is always trying to figure out this peripheral stuff and debate which side of the fence we are on with the other side, or focus on eschatology, or legalism vs graceism, universalism or the evils of “religion,” and all that does for the most part is serve as a distraction from the one central issue out of which all those others pale in comparison, and that is who are we?

    Even “no independent self” can be an ism, until we have in ourselves experienced the full agony of Rom 7, and through that the Spirit carries us out of bondage into the glorious liberty of the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.” (Rom 8:2)

    We do not get there*[see note below]* except we lose ourselves, ["Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."] The rich young man couldn’t part with his riches, going away sorrowfully, and Jesus finally exclaiming that it was easier to put a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of God — which he did then say was impossible with men, but all things possible with God.

    So we ask, what riches keep us out? It is the riches of puffed up self! A wrong consciousness of independence, that cannot let itself go, and it is true it cannot, as Paul found out in Rom 7, but Christ can and does pull us through from “wretched man” to Rom 8:2. The Spirit does it.

    This is really kind of getting to first base. Anything less is walking in the wilderness of separation afraid to touch the smoking mountain. But as the adage I recently heard says, there is a place where there are two doors. One door, “Heaven,” stood open and hardly anyone was going in. The other door, “Seminar on Heaven,” was busy and the room inside was full of people.

    Isms are of the seminar. Life just IS, and isn’t contained in an ism, but in the wide impregnable country of Christ. That’s the “heaven” door, and few it seems to be who seek it, but God knows what He is doing, bringing us along day by day.

    *”There” refers to the fulness of “Christ formed in us,” or “the Promised Land,” and not meant to reflect on a person’s “salvation.”

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anonymous12:05 PM

    Distractions by Fred Pruitt

    All that “What ism are you?” is basically distraction. Not that there is not truth or there is no error, but it is deeper than the ism one adheres to. It all goes back to person — how do I “know” God?

    Everybody is always trying to figure out this peripheral stuff and debate which side of the fence we are on with the other side, or focus on eschatology, or legalism vs graceism, universalism or the evils of “religion,” and all that does for the most part is serve as a distraction from the one central issue out of which all those others pale in comparison, and that is who are we?

    Even “no independent self” can be an ism, until we have in ourselves experienced the full agony of Rom 7, and through that the Spirit carries us out of bondage into the glorious liberty of the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.” (Rom 8:2)

    We do not get there*[see note below]* except we lose ourselves, ["Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple."] The rich young man couldn’t part with his riches, going away sorrowfully, and Jesus finally exclaiming that it was easier to put a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of God — which he did then say was impossible with men, but all things possible with God.

    So we ask, what riches keep us out? It is the riches of puffed up self! A wrong consciousness of independence, that cannot let itself go, and it is true it cannot, as Paul found out in Rom 7, but Christ can and does pull us through from “wretched man” to Rom 8:2. The Spirit does it.

    This is really kind of getting to first base. Anything less is walking in the wilderness of separation afraid to touch the smoking mountain. But as the adage I recently heard says, there is a place where there are two doors. One door, “Heaven,” stood open and hardly anyone was going in. The other door, “Seminar on Heaven,” was busy and the room inside was full of people.

    Isms are of the seminar. Life just IS, and isn’t contained in an ism, but in the wide impregnable country of Christ. That’s the “heaven” door, and few it seems to be who seek it, but God knows what He is doing, bringing us along day by day.

    *”There” refers to the fulness of “Christ formed in us,” or “the Promised Land,” and not meant to reflect on a person’s “salvation.”

    ReplyDelete
  47. Thank you for sharing your heart on this matter, Steve. I view things quite similar to what you described here. As far as Trinitarian or Unitarian, I just look at what Jesus said.. "I and the Father are ONE" and then he tells us "you and I are ONE". While we each are individual, we are also each ONE in Christ. So it doesn't bother me really, if one says they are one or three. We're all one family.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I saw the two part video on the 52 Lies (gci.org) and then your article here. I agree wholeheartedly! I have been telling people this for a long time!

    Though what Jesus Christ did was "universal", does not mean that universally, people will believe it or live in that reality. Universally speaking, "For God so loved the world (cosmos, or all of His creation)...". But to enjoy that reality, you have to believe it. The Sin of mankind is unbelief.

    Here is an article I wrote in 2009 called "Round and Round We Go" which touches on the Trinity.
    http://boydmerrimanchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/10/round-and-round-we-go.html

    ReplyDelete
  49. The spirit in which this is written is love. I am blessed by your honesty and sincere desire to share the the truth. it's obvious you are sharing not for the sake of debate but for love's sake.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Thanks Steve for this article that helps bring clarity to keep the main thing the main thing!

    Since 2012 the Lord has brought this grace walk and finished work truth across my path. Oh my goodness! In all my church years I've never heard such good news! Your books have been part of path of truth that sets you free.

    About five years ago, as I was praying for a young woman who had so many issues it seemed to me impossible for her to be saved, I heard Him say - "Great is My love, Nancy."

    The magnitude of those words have been resounding in me in light of hearing the REALLY good news over this past year. You aptly affirm them even in this article. Surely to be overwhelmed by His great love personally would profoundly affect our love for ourselves, which in turn would affect our love for others. Isn't this the essence of the Trinity and His desire for all His children?

    ReplyDelete