Friday, November 26, 2010

A Question About Things I'm Teaching These Days

I'm having a hard time understanding the difference in what you taught before and what people are saying you are teaching now. The subjective objective stuff isn't clicking. Could you send me a clear statement. Are you what they call Trinitarian? What does that even mean?



Like everybody, I'm still growing in grace. I make no claim of perfect understanding but simply trust the Holy Spirit, study the Bible and come to the conclusions I believe He leads me to reach. If I am wrong, I am wrong after loving Jesus, Scripture, praying for guidance and agonizing for five years before I even spoke publicly about these things.

Six years ago I began to read writings by authors Thomas F. Torrance, his brother James B Thomas, Baxter Kruger, as well as the writings of some of the early church Fathers, particularly those called "the Capadocian Fathers." I was introduced to these theologians at a time when I had begun questioning how my teaching that God's love is bigger and better than we can imagine fit together with the Calvinistic view of "limited atonement" that I had held until then.

As I began to study, I discovered that there has always been a view of our Father that fits His nature much better than the viewpoint I had held. This view has always been accepted and believed in some corners of the church, i.e. the Greek Orthodox church. Some have referred to this view as Trinitarianism (not be be confused with simply believing in the Trinity as opposed to Unitarianism and not to be confused with what some have called Trinitarian Universalism, which is a misnomer because no such thing actually exists).

I don't like "isms" but for the sake of identifying varying views, they have always been used - even in the days of the early church. So, while I am not comfortable with views I've heard expressed by some Trinitarians, the school of thought commonly called "Trinitarianism" does fit where I find myself. I have learned much from those in this group and believe there are some things some of them could learn from the "exchanged life community" too.

The essence of Trinitarianism is that we were created to live in the circle of love existing among the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is our Father's purpose that we should enjoy living from within this circle of grace forever. Everything flows from our Triune God and our participation in His life. That is how we were created to live.

When Adam sinned, our God wasn't caught off guard. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world already had everything "under control" so that sin wouldn't have the final word on mankind's destiny. In the Garden, our God spoke words of hope about redemption to Adam and Eve from the moment they fell. His intent was that, as the Last Adam, Jesus would make right what Adam made wrong.

And that's exactly what He did. Our Triune God came into this world on a rescue mission for humanity. In a concerted work of redemption, God "was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" on the cross. The work of the cross was effective and effectual for us all. When Jesus said, "It is finished," He really meant it.

Here's where the rub comes to those who oppose this viewpoint. What Jesus did is an accomplished fact. He has dealt with the sin. He came to take away the sins of the world. Did He succeed? Of course, He did. Sin is no longer the issue. The problem mankind has today is unbelief.

Every benefit of the cross has been accomplished for all of humanity and is true whether we know it, believe it or not. Jesus defeated sin, once and for all. There's nothing left for Him to do on our behalf because He succeeded in accomplishing it all on the cross.

What are the benefits of the cross? Forgiveness, acceptance, righteousness, life - the list could go on. Take forgiveness for an example. Are people forgiven before they believe? Yes, they are but they must believe it for that forgiveness to have any personal value to them. People can "go to hell" as forgiven people. I think most "exchanged life people" believe that much.

So, most acknowledge then that forgiveness - a benefit of the cross- is already a reality for everybody even before they believe it. They must believe it for it to make a difference in their personal lives, but the fact that they may not believe it doesn't change the objective reality.

Here's where some stumble. Example: Righteousness is the condition of having put in a right standing with God. That too is a benefit of the cross. It it true for those that don't believe it? Have they indeed been put in a right standing with God even if they don't believe? Yes, they have. Otherwise, we find ourselves at a place where we must say, "Some benefits of the cross are true of you whether you believe or not (God has dealt with your sin and forgiven you) but other benefits (like righteousness) become true only when you believe.

There is an incongruity in this approach that is unavoidable when we start saying that one aspect of the cross (forgiveness) is a reality with or without belief but other things (righteousness, holiness, etc) only become true when we believe. No, it's all true. Our faith doesn't make it happen. The cross made it all happen. Our faith is simply the place of coming to see the reality that has existed all along, even before we believed. "I once was blind (to what was actually there already) but now I see!"

Hebrews 4:2 says, "For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also ; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard." The good news (gospel) is what it is to everybody. It's true for those who believe and for those who don't believe. Jesus has died and rose again and in the process made it right for us all, but unless people believe, it will "not profit them" personally because the message of the gospel is "not united by faith" to those who hear it.

Again, unbelief is man's problem. The proclamation of the gospel isn't one that announces what Jesus "will do for you" if you trust Him. It is an announcement of what He has done for us already. The proclamation is "here's what He has done!" and the invitation of the gospel is "believe it!"

We have been given the ministry of reconciliation by which we speak as ambassadors for God and challenge people to "be reconciled to God!" In other words, "believe on the finished work of Jesus and experience personal salvation!"

With all the talk that goes on about "the centrality of the cross," what many of us have inadvertently but actually taught is "the centrality of our profession of faith. We've taught that it all happens when a person trusts Christ. Really? So the central moment that brings forgiveness, righteousness, etc is when WE believe it? It's our faith that makes it happen? No, the cross made it happen. I've come to see how egocentric that view really is. That suggests that it's all about us and what we do or don't do.

When Jesus died, He said, "It is finished." He didn't say, "Your move." The gospel of the cross is that Jesus Christ has dealt with sin for every person. We are forgiven, righteous, and are now free to live out of Divine Life!

THAT is the pure gospel. It tells what is, not what can be if somebody will just "do the right thing."

Now, here are two I am NOT saying (by the way, CAPS here are for emphasis, not yelling):

1. I am not saying that people don't have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation experience. Jesus is still the only way to our Father.
2. I am not saying people don't go to hell because of what Jesus has done. We are indeed saved by grace, THROUGH faith, but even that faith is a gift of God.

Finally, I will point out that this viewpoint is not "a new teaching." Something isn't new just because it's new to us. This is a biblical view of salvation that has been held since the days of the early church. Admittedly, it isn't widely known in the Evangelical Western World of the 21st century, but it is certainly a view embraced by many believes around the world today and throughout history.

D-, perhaps I've "over-answered" your question but that's because your question was well stated and it's one that I know others are asking too. So, without using your name, I'm going to post your question and my response on my blog in an attempt to help others understand where I'm coming from too.

Blessings to you. I hope your Christmas season is a great one! Pray for me. My heart's desire is what it has always been - to share the life of love of our God with people in a way that they will personally experience Him and be transformed.

38 comments:

  1. An EXCELLENT word Steve- and as one of those exchanged life/union people, I agree entirely!

    I am grateful for the boldness God has given you!

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  2. One could ask "why does Jesus die for 40 trillion sins but not the big important one 'unbelief' ? (addressed in the book i mention below)
    And when words like "they must believe it " are inserted amongst words like "Every benefit of the cross has been accomplished for all of humanity and is true whether we know it, believe it or not. Jesus defeated sin, once and for all. There's nothing left for Him to do on our behalf because He succeeded in accomplishing it all on the cross. "

    - this can lead to great confusion...

    I recommend everyone on the planet read this book which addresses confusing doubletalk like what i quoted - http://martinzender.com/books/free_enlarged.htm

    I'm not tring to cause trouble Steve but this book 'The Really Bad Thing about Free Will' addresses some of the things you say - it's a short book but an absolute classic. I'm wanting to know the gospel in absolute clarity but i sense some doubletalk here.

    It addresses some of the double talk that is said throughout christendom - eg 'Christ' finised work is enough alongside statements like 'you must believe it' etc....the 'must' can become a requirement which is awefully like a law.

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  3. Thanks - this is brilliantly stated!

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  4. well said Steve. And I dont have to remind you that you are in good company when it comes to people trying to put you down . Paul experienced it continuously. Augustine railed against those who didnt go along with his views on hell and salvation. Calvin himself,as I have read, engineered the arrest and burning of a man named Miguel Servetus because of his disagreements with Calvin on some fine points of theology. Keep going strong, the Lord has your back.

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  5. Excellent, Steve!

    I especially liked: 'When Jesus died, He didn't say "Your move."

    We really do look at things from our own egocentric view don't we?

    I'm not much of an 'ism' guy either to be honest.....

    What is the last name of this Calvin guy that you mention? :^)

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  6. Thanks Steve for your comments; I guess I have always looked at the cross as being the final and complete work, To appease Gods wrath, not only for us, but for the whole world! (1 John 2:2) The resurrection giving us new eternal life in Christ Jesus.
    Thank you for always explaining your views in a very understandable manner.
    God Bless;
    Jerry

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  7. steve, i love you. isn't it nice to remember that *you* don't need to worry so much about "your" reputation? :)

    i would try to help by saying this:
    the people who attack you probably don't come from a monergistic, Calvinistic background. but the conclusions you've reached and are teaching now _might_ depend on the monergism that Calvinism assumes. :) i suggest that the troubles you currently have with these people may be the old monergism vs synergism debate in yet another form. going forward, you might want to re-examine the weight of scripture on the monergism/synergism issue and then focus on why you accept one or the other. :)

    ---
    would you please explain a question i have?

    you wrote:
    "We've taught that it all happens when a person trusts Christ. ... That suggests that it's all about us and what we do or don't do."

    yet, as i understand you, even you still say that experiencing *all* the benefits of what God has done (such as a heavenly heaven) depends on what we do or don't do.

    ...if experiencing heaven as heaven instead of as hell depends on us, why is your view not just as "egocentric" as you had described the other view being?

    grace + peace, brother.

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  8. Steve.That's absolutely knock-out. I think two things stand out for me here. First as you say When Jesus died, He said, "It is finished." He didn't say, "Your move." And secondly we are now free to live out of Divine Life! I would like to see how you expound on Divine Life because that's where the fun begins!! Great stuff. Stuart

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  9. grace + peace, brother.

    Acts 5:33-39
    1 Peter 4:12-16

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  10. Anonymous8:06 AM

    Thanks Steve for clarifying your position, we have some Calvinists who are disturbing our young adult group, and causing fights. Coming from a legalistic church I thought Calvin was a good thing, until the fights. I just can't agree with people born for Hell with no hope. I like your take on grace and I've been reading your blog. Thanks for clearing things up for me.

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  11. I am just exploring this site. A 30 year Christian who struggles for reality and truth - I wonder why it is doctrinal truth is so elusive. I will just stick to issue of Grace - what was written makes sense, however a case could easily be made going the other way (Prov.18:17). You (Steve)said God must reveal this to you-why does He reveal, or not reveal this truth to all who seek Him? (I mean those who are genuine seekers) I am not being argumentitive at all - I want truth as I know so many people do, but why is it we come up on all sides of every aspect of the bible? I am hoping this message is an answer for me, I am So WEARY of trying SO hard.
    God bless.

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  12. Refrigbob - if you'll send me your ground address, I'd like to send you a copy of my first book, Grace Walk, as a gift. I think it may answer some of the questions/concerns you've expressed here...

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  13. Anonymous2:18 AM

    Amen.

    and thanks! :)

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  14. Anonymous2:18 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  15. The post above wasn't removed because of his "Blogger name." It was posted because of an obscene picture used as his profile picture. I welcome input from anybody but won't leave posts that have links to inappropriate pictures. Kids look at my site too.

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  16. Make that "it was removed because of an..."

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  17. Steve,
    I enjoy your blog and your passion for Christ. I have a quick question. Isn't there a separation between what was accomplished on the cross and what was accomplished through the resurrection. For example, forgiveness throughout His death but Justification through His life. Romans 5:10

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  18. Oshioke - yes, a definite distinction can be made. Resurrection Life is the pinnacle of His finished work, but of course that is inseparable from the cross. Generally, when we speak of "the work of the cross," the phrase includes the benefits of the resurrection too although they obviously are two separate subjects if we look closely.

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  19. I am concerned, it seems that Romans 10 is ripped right out of scripture. Their seems to be a small do on our part to be saved. Beleif and faith is a requisite, am I wrong?

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  20. Johnny - you are exactly right that we are to believe. But where do we get the faith to do that?? Eph 2:8 says, "For by grace are you saved through faith and THAT (faith) is not of yourselves. It is a gift of God, not of works lest anybody should boast." So, even faith originates with Him. That's why He gets all the glory for our salvation. Our faith is simply simply agreeing with His faith and thus living out of the Reality (as opposed to the illusion) he has already created for us.

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  21. Anonymous8:56 AM

    Thank you for a clear answer. I am on a similar path (and meeting resistance). Nice to know I'm not alone.

    See
    http://heartofwisdom.com/blog/living-loved-and-dancing-with-trinity/

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  22. You certainly don't need me to tell you thins - but if somebody is trying to destroy your reputation, he certainly is NOT a friend. Even if you were in complete error, the politics/theology of personal destruction is wrong.

    Now as to what you've been teaching - you know I've been looking for a biblical framework for where God was leading my heart and mind. You've done that. So thanks.

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  23. Hi Steve. Fascinating insights and I'm a fan of your blog. 2 issues come immediately to mind.

    1. It appears that you consider faith to be a "work." May I point you to Rom 4:16 which says, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace..." This verse clearly indicates that faith is fully consistent with grace, and is therefore not a work. I'm interested in your take on this.

    2: The idea of faith as a gift is part of Calvinist teaching, usually derived from Eph 2:8. It follows from the rest of Calvinist logic, and is consistent with the idea of faith= work. Contrary to this thinking is the fact that the original Greek language grammar eliminates faith as being the antecedent of the pronoun "that". Therefore in eph 2:8 faith is not the gift. Salvation is. We only use this verse as a prooftext because we incorrectly consider faith as a work. Have you studied this?

    In other words, the Only non-meritorious approach that a person can take to experience God's Love, Grace, Forgiveness and countless riches in Christ is Faith! Not good works, not trying to please, not guilt or shame, not penance. Trust does not negate Grace! Therefore, those of us who are of a Grace-oriented bent, do not need to work so hard to make faith into a gift!

    I'm a free grace advocate, and am very encouraged by your website and your blog. I don't want to be a pest; rather, I sincerely hope to understand your teaching.
    God Bless!
    bobfromchicago

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  24. Bob - I must not have made myself clear. I do not believe that faith is a work. I believe it is a gift. It's not something we have to "work up" at all. In fact, "our" faith is actually "His faith" and we rest in his vicarious faith on behalf of us all.

    I hope this clears up my view. If I've not understood your question or this response doesn't answer it, please feel free to respond and I'll try again. Thanks for your input.

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  25. Steve,
    Thank you so much for your clarification to my first issue! We agree: Faith is not a work.

    The second issue I raised is that the original language of Eph 2:8 does not support Faith as a gift. Where else does faith appear to be a gift in scripture? Is it necessary for faith to be a gift to have a consistent soteriology?

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  26. Here's my very "theological" response. I would rather be wrong about His all consuming grace and love for us rather than the Calvinistic viewpoint that some are chosen for hell. How can erring on the side of "love" be such a bad thing. It's amazing how even in this, the Salvation He has freely given to us, that we still want to make it about us.

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  27. Bob - it is not necessary for faith to be a gift for my view of soteriology, as long as we realize it's not a work. How would you see it? I think that Christ IS our Faith but that puts "faith" back under the "gift" category to me. What are your thoughts on it? I've been wrong before :)

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  28. Johnny

    For a long time i could not see Romans 10:9-10 in the context of grace. Some translations show that the 'if' of this passage is referring to an occasion use of the word - more like 'when'.
    It is simply saying that 'When one confesses Christ as Lord and believes in His heart He is saved' - it is stating a fact, not a directive or instructions....More like it's saying that those who believe will be able to confess Christ as Lord and believe it in their heart.
    Another passage says that no one can says Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit - so it must mean that the work is authored by God.

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  29. Dear Brother Steve,

    First thank you for your posting. It makes sense that all the benefits of the cross are true (atonement of sin, forgiveness, righteousness). But there is one item (and probably more than one) that is not clear (and that is also ok).

    There are statements in the Bible of the "old man" that "is" crucified with Christ. (Gal 2:20) Yet, before I became a believer at the age of 32, I recall some of the foolish things that I believed. And when I decided to read the Bible with the intent to disprove it (to save what I though were some "foolish" Christians), a disproportional amount of anger arose within me that I recall actually being surprised by its magnitude in the moment. My anger quickly died down to a low boil as I applied logic that it is only a book I am reading. But to restate, I was surprised at the level of my initial anger and wondered many years later (after I became a believer) where the source of that anger came from.

    So now to my question(s):

    1. Do you believe that the "old man" is dead in all people from birth on? (And to be honest, it makes more sense to me that only at the moment of my rebirth [another gift from God], that my "old man" is transported back to the cross where the accomplishment of his death in Christ occurs). The reason I believe this makes more sense is it is the old man that separates our spirit from the Spirit of Christ/God until faith in Christ endwells us (and that is a topic I am not addressing here). I believe the old man was the source of my dispropotionate anger.

    2. Can a person be righteous (moment by moment in this life) if the old man still exists within us (prior to our rebirth)?

    3. What is the source of our separation (if it is not the "old man" if he is dead in all people at our birth)?

    My understanding is that Christ did not have an "old man" which is why he had a relationship with the Father from his birth. Christ experienced the "old man" on the Cross which he took within himself so for the first time in His existence, He knew what separation from the Father actually is. He experienced the reverse of what we go through. We experience separation from the Father at birth (due to the old man) and when the gift of God's Grace is given to us, we are freed from the "old man" and can finally have a relationship with the Father. Unfortunately "sin" has laid tracks/ruts in our belief system that God takes time to remove.

    So while I understand that there is ill-logic if "Some benefits of the cross are true of you whether you believe or not (God has dealt with your sin and forgiven you) but other benefits (like righteousness) become true only when you believe", there does seem to require a time component that may be beyond our understanding due to our being created to live in time (where-as God is not subject to it given that Crist was crucified before the foundation of the world.)

    Thank you for listing to me and I am thankful that you provided this venue for discussion.

    God Bless

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  30. Steve, I agree wholeheartedly that faith is not a work. Rom 4:6 confirms that. Christ is our faith in a certain sense, the author and finisher of it. In that sense, The Faith is the content, and the object of our beliefs. In that sense, it's a gift. In a more generic sense, faith is trust; belief. Eph 2:8-9 does not really teach that the trust kind of faith is a gift, since the gender-specific nature of the original Greek language precludes it. Thank you so much for this dialog. You make me think harder than I normally do! God Bless you and your ministry.

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  31. Steve:

    I agree with most of what you're saying in terms of belief and faith, the centrality of the cross and the work being finished for all, outside of the belief of Man. You are very close to the finish line, but you've not crossed it yet - there is a missing piece.

    The problem I arrive to deals with your position regarding a right standing before God. Right standing with God is not an exclusive work of faith (belief and trust), it is a cooperative work of God with man. Since faith is necessary in the economy of God, right standing with God is by it's very nature a work of Grace and not Sovereignty - for by grace we have been saved, through faith.

    Sovereignty is an action taken by an entity outside any constraint or consideration of any other party. Thus Sovereignty says I shall do as I will, when, where and how I will regardless of what anyone else says or does. Sovereignty is in its very basic essence, the active expression of free will.

    Grace, on the other hand, is the opposite of Sovereignty. Grace is that thing which makes one into something they cannot become by themselves. Try as I may, I cannot make myself to be in a right standing before God, otherwise Grace would be of works and Grace would no longer be Grace (Romans 11:6).

    Nevertheless, this much I believe we would agree upon - grace is the conduit which is opened by faith. Faith is a requirement to the operation of Grace just as much as the centrality and work of the cross is a truth outside of our belief systems.

    Therefore, in regards to the following:

    "Here's where some stumble. Example: Righteousness is the condition of having (been) put in a right standing with God. That too is a benefit of the cross. (Is) it true for those that don't believe it? Have they indeed been put in a right standing with God even if they don't believe? Yes, they have."

    At this point, “all have been put in a right standing with God even if they don’t believe”, is where I part streams with you. And the reason I diverge is that the piece you're missing in your well thought out argument is the function of Life vs. Death.

    When God created Adam, He breathed His life into Adam. When sin entered into man kind, Adam destroyed the life God breathed into him and Adam became separated from God through the absence of God’s life. God is Life and the absence of life is death, hence in that day, Adam died. Any cursory study of Life vs. Death in the Bible will yield the truth that God has a lot to say about being alive to Him vs. being dead in trespasses and sin.

    I therefore submit the following: one who is dead (does not have the Life of God) cannot be in right standing with God because one does not have the Life of God dwelling within him, and as such, cannot commune with God. Nothing one does (outside of faith in the promises of God) will change that fact; otherwise grace is no longer grace. The cross makes the Life of God and right standing before God available to Man, but outside of man cooperating with God through God’s grace and mans’ actions based in faith, Life (salvation) will never be realized. And no amount of belief will change that fact, “for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Belief is only one third of the puzzle of faith, trust is the second piece and believing that God is God is the final piece: “but without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

    To cross the finish line, we must not forget the Biblical truth of Life vs. Death, that man is dead in his trespasses and sins, and the centrality of the Cross teaches us that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. In order for man to be in right standing with God, Grace through Faith must be applied and new Life must be breathed by God into man.

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  32. Anonymous9:06 PM

    Steve, I'd love to ask you more questions on how people still go to hell if all are made righteous and Christ has paid for everybody's sins.

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  33. The short answer is that people don't experience hell because of sin but because of unbelief. God's love IS hell to them because of their rejection of Him. If He hasn't paid for everybody's sins, when and how are they paid for? The problem anybody has today isn't sin but unbelief.

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  34. Anonymous8:35 PM

    I've realized I've been rebelling against and resisting God's love. I can now taste being in the circle of the love of the Trinity and it's good. God's renewing me and turning me back to Him. It even took me going to jail for it to happen but it's happening. I'm hoping for and looking forward to enjoying the Lord's love.

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  35. Steve, I just saw a video of yours today that brought me to tears as you talked about God's love and wrath. You see I had an experience with God's love on November 4th 2005 at 12:00 pm in my living room. My whole testimony is on my Facebook page, but I wanted to make a comment. You know the Scriptures that talk about God drawing us to Jesus and about His righteousness being revealed to us, well that was happening to me for as long as i can remember, while i sinned, while i did whatever, I could feel God all around me but i did not know it was God, the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin---the only sin that sends people to hell, not believing in Jesus, but it's not a belief in our mind but in our heart, which I believe that's where our spirit/soul is because when people would hurt my feelings that's where I would feel a weird feeling, and when I stubbed my toe. Anyways I want to know when were you quickened in your spirit by the Love of God?

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  36. Hi Steve! I am believer in the "exchanged life" concept and have read Charles Solomon and listened to Bill and Anabelle Gillam thoroughly enjoying understanding who I am In Chirst! Just recently I discovered your books and read 2 of them. "Grace Walk" and "52 Lies..". I see truth in each and appreciate your good attention to the Scriptures.

    All that is to let you know a little of my background. Now, I am wondering if you consider your current view of God in line with the more liberal emergent church and/or the universalists who believe that all human beings will be saved from God's wrath and live eternally with God regardless of their belief in Jesus' shed blood for their sins? If, as you say, "Sin is no longer the issue. The problem mankind has today is unbelief", what then is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven according to Jesus in Mark 3:28-29? I always thought that was "unbelief". I completely agree that God gives one "faith" to believe, so God ultimately determines whether or not a person will believe in Him. Thank you for considering my questions! Karen

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  37. Thanks for asking, Karen. I don't see my views as being in alignment with the Emergent Church. While I share some of their concerns, I believe their view on the authority of Scripture is weaker than mine. My opinion is that, generally speaking, I think they're answers are often tempered with too much effort to be relative. Having said that, I respect that they do wrestle with the hard questions, unlike most Evangelicals today.

    As to Universalism, although I'm sometimes falsely accused of that by those who don't understand Trinitarian theology, I am not a Universalist. I believe faith in Christ is the only way to experience eternal life and go to heaven.

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    Replies
    1. Steve, thank you for your reply. I think I understand a little better now. Except that I still don't understand what Trinitarian theology is teaching. Could you help me with that? and do you agree with all of it?

      Also, what happens to those who *don't* believe and come to faith in Christ and experience eternal life and heaven; where do they go at physical death? In other words, do you think there will be a judgment for them, and what would that judgment result in?

      And how do you see Jesus words to Nicodemus: "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God?

      Karen

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