The argument has persisted among theologians for years. It revolves around the answer to one question: Can Jesus be your Savior without being your Lord? Entire seminaries have gone their separate ways over this question. In some quarters of the church world, your answer to the question is the determining standard by which you will be judged.I've often been asked what I think about the issue. My response is that, to be honest, the whole argument is a silly one. First of all, why would anybody come to Christ, trusting Him in faith to forgive their sin and give them His life while insisting on still holding onto the deed to his own life? I think everybody who trusts Christ wants Him to take charge of their lives. That's a fundamental aspect of coming to Him for salvation.
Does that mean then that every area of a Christian's life will be fully and perfectly animated by His indwelling life? Of course not. There is room to grow in every one of us. Is Jesus not Lord of my life if there is still an area in which I find my flesh repeatedly rearing its ugly head? If that's the case, we're all in trouble - even those who argue most zealously for the idea of "Lordship salvation."
The bottom line is that Jesus is Lord, not because I make Him Lord of my life but because He that's who He is. He is King of kings and Lord of lords and my response to Him has nothing to do with that. He is your Lord, my Lord, the Lord of heaven and earth. He is Lord over the demons of hell. He is Lord over Satan himself. He is the Lord and we flatter ourselves if we think we have anything to do with that fact.
The higher reality than His lordship over us is that fact that He is our Life. That fact overshadows His saviorhood and lordship in wonderful ways. Jesus Christ didn't just save us from our sin. He's much more than our "boss." (The Greek word for Lord is kurios and means boss.) He is our very Life and "in Him we live and move and exist" (Acts 17:28). He's the air we breath. He is the DNA of our existence. (See 2 Peter 1:3-4)
What do I believe about Lordship salvation? I think it's a elementary schoolyard squabble. Jesus Christ is Life and until we know that, we're missing the main point regardless of which side of the argument we come down on.
very good Steve...i agree wholeheartedly! how many people are "proud" of the way they bow their knee to the LORD Jesus, only to judge others who dont do it EXACTLY as they do...mmmm, smells like self-righteousness to me! They forget that EVERYONE falls short of Gods glory, EVERYONE...even them that believe they are obedient to the Nth degree..
ReplyDeleteVery good points Steve!
ReplyDeleteOf course Jesus is Lord no matter what we do or don't do.
The whole 'debate' stinks of the behaviour patterns of the Judaizers.
I've heard the 'Lordship' idea expressed many ways over the years- frequently as the concept of giving up each room of my 'house' to Him- holding back no part of my life from His dominion.
ReplyDeleteBut though every way I've heard it expressed sounded good initially, I think they all have a common flaw- they require us to do some work- to turn over some part of our life to Christ. Which presumes we own any part of our life.
If we are saved our life belongs entirely to God- in Him alone we live and breathe and have our being. And if (when, actually) there is some part of our life that He wants to work in, He will work. It's His life now, He will do as He will do!
I guess the fuzz about this comes from Romans 10, where Paul talks about "confessing with your mouth" that Jesus is Lord". But it never says anything about him being my personal Lord. It's just a matter of recognising him as God, as Lord and it's typical that we want to make ourselves big and important, and make our salvation depend on what we make him. Like anyone of us can make him anything. He is Lord. Period!
ReplyDeleteBrother Steve, I sincerely appreciate your perspective on this serious issue of so-called "lordship salvation", but...
ReplyDeleteI would like to suggest their is a fundamental principle at stake here that we tend to miss using that unfortunate label.
The true grace (1Peter 5.12) or so-called "non-lordship" "free grace" teachers agree wholeheartedly with your excellent statement on the Eternal Lordship of Christ Jesus!
The real issue they (and I include myself) take issue with is that of the error(s) of "discipleship salvation" or more accurately "discipleship "probation".
Must one be "an obedient disciple" of the Lord Jesus in order to be eternally saved, or remain saved?
Or does Scripture teach that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in the Person & finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ alone? (Answer: One may be saved and yet fail miserably at being an obedient child of God. See Romans 4.5; Hebrews 12 & 1John 5.16-17)
And of course Scripture warns consistently and often that one may be a seemingly obedient "disciple" in all outward appearances and sadly not "know" Christ intimately in a salvific sense. (See Matthew 7.21-23)
An excellent article on this topic is available at: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/sal-dis.htm
Our prayers are God will continue to bless the GraceWalk ministry!
www.abercrombie.cc
Brother Steve, I sincerely appreciate your perspective on this serious issue of so-called "lordship salvation", but...
ReplyDeleteI would like to suggest their is a fundamental principle at stake here that we tend to miss using that unfortunate label.
The true grace (1Peter 5.12) or so-called "non-lordship" "free grace" teachers agree wholeheartedly with your excellent statement and position on the Eternal Lordship of Christ Jesus!
The real issue they (and I include myself) take exception with is specifically that of the error(s) of "discipleship salvation" or more accurately "discipleship "probation".
Must one be "an obedient disciple" of the Lord Jesus in order to be eternally saved, or remain saved?
Or does Scripture teach that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in the Person & finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ alone? (Answer: One may be saved and yet fail miserably at being an obedient child of God. See Romans 4.5; Hebrews 12 & 1John 5.16-17)
And of course Scripture warns consistently and often that one may be a seemingly obedient "disciple" in all outward appearances and sadly not "know" Christ intimately in a salvific sense. (See Matthew 7.21-23)
An excellent article on this topic is available at: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/sal-dis.htm
Our prayers are God will continue to bless the GraceWalk ministry!
www.abercrombie.cc
Amen! Amen! How wonderful that you shared this. Someday, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord, everyone will know who He really is!!!
ReplyDeleteHi Steve
ReplyDeleteI enjoy all your posts
“If anything matters, then everything matters” (William.P.Young, “The Shack”, page 248), sadly the opposite; if anything does not matter then everything does not matter is more the delusional thinking that we participate with in this world. We avoid this objective truth and try to gain meaning through subjective experiences, a relative mindset of personal values.
It is God who lives life in all humanity where anything and everything matters. It is in relationship that God reveals Himself so that we may change our mind and come to know that He loves us more than He loves Himself. jg
Abercrombie, I appreciate your thoughtful insights and certainly agree with what you've written about not losing our salvation when we stumble in our walk. However, my reading about the debate over lordship salvation has led me to a different perspective on the nature of the debate. I haven't read anything that indicates that the debate is about whether a person will remain a Christian if he hasn't "made Jesus Lord" of every area of his life. The definitive question in the debate is where or not he really is a Christian to begin with unless he has.
ReplyDeleteMany who argue both for and against lordship salvation believe a person can't lose his salvation. The question in the debate isn't about security, but about authenticity of a person's faith experience. "Is one really a Christian who hasn't made Jesus Lord of his life?"
So our understanding of what the debate is about differs. I do appreciate you adding to the discussions. Blessings.
Good point, Ben. He has the deed to the house and, consequently, the key to every room. To think we are strong enough to shut Him out of any place is a delusion.
ReplyDeleteSteve, Thanks for including my comments and your gracious reply.
ReplyDeleteI can easily see how you would view this issue as a "silly one" and a "schoolhouse squabble" if in fact the real argument merely focused on whether Jesus is Lord (deity) and sovereign.
(Note: In our area--the Carolinas & Virginia-- the real underlying issue is on whether"discipleship" is essential to salvation.) As you pointed out in your initial article, both camps (John MacArthur, J.Piper, R.C.Sproul, B.B.Warfield, J.R.W.Stott, etc. believe in the Lordship of Christ as firmly as do, L.S.Chafer, C. Ryrie, Zane Hodges, Charles Bing, J.B. Hixson etc.
The problem we encounter here is that our Calvinist friends & relatives declare a disobedient disciple to be a "false professor" of salvation, thus never saved. While our Arminian friends teach if one is professing to be a true "Christian" and not a consistently obedient disciple, that one would forfeit salvation (that is in reality probation).
I am curious which sources you are referring to when you read on this issue of so-called "lordship salvation". Are you familiar with GraceLife Resources www.gracelife.org ? Dr. Charles Bing, of Dallas Seminary, has written several excellent articles clarifying what he views to be the underlying/undiscussed argument.
Both camps seem to hold a subtly distorted understanding of how God's true grace (1Peter 5.12) saves us through faith alone (Titus 3.5; Romans 4.5)
I, personally, was set free from the confusing legalistic errors of so-called "lordship salvation" some 30+ years ago by someone lovingly explaining from Scripture how God's grace alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone is only what eternally saves me, and none of my subsequent obedience (as a disciple) or lack thereof to His sovereign Lordship is ever a relevant factor.
Steve, Well stated.
ReplyDeleteI have struggled with this point. I think the biggest problem that I have with Lordship Salvation is not doctrinal. Rather it is the outcome. I have known several people that have whole-heartedly bought into the Lordship Salvation idea. They are sincere people that love Christ.
But the result in their lives is one of constant questioning. Questioning if their actions measure up. Always trying to "do" more for Christ to make more fruit. I think that this is done sincerely. But they also take it a step farther. In my mind, a more dangerous place. They are examining the "lordship" of others.
Now these people will not admit to this if asked...but it flows out of their words and actions. They are constantly weighing the authenticity of people's saving faith. discussing how others actions are not measuring up to true saving faith. Always throwing out the faith without works principle.
It is the result of Lordship Salvation that is far more dangerous than the doctrine itself. We need to pursue the vine rather than focusing on the fruit. Be vine seekers rather than fruit examiners.
In my experience the thinking is that your devotion/dedication/commitment level gets to a place where you 'shift gears' from nominal believer to believer who has relinquished total control of his/her life to the Lord. In my journey there has, in fact, been a change in how I view God's love for me and the response of love and thanksgiving I now have for Him, but it has always originated with Him reaching out to me. I don't believe it has changed Him from 'plain ole Savior' to Lord He has always been Lord. I think alot of this revolves around the way this 'pray this prayer and you're on your way to heaven, see ya next week' style of evangelism has permeated many institutions in the past 50 or 60 years. With the belief that we get a little Jesus at salvation and then more and more as we yield various areas of our life to Him until we're about as conformed as we can get. Major Ian Thomas was asked once what he thought of a particular (large) denomination. His response, "In a word, shallow."
ReplyDeletePraise God, the message of God's grace and love for us is grabbing hearts in many, many brothers and sisters trapped in the religious grind.... with pure joy and freedom as the result.
I tried to post this once and it got lost...
ReplyDeleteThe problem that I have with Lordship Salvation is not doctrinal, rather it is how it is expressed. I agree totally that if you are willing to trust Him as Saviour, He will be your Lord.
I have known people that have really bought into the whole Lordship Salvation thing. They are sincere Christians that love God with their whole hearts. The problem is that they are always examining the actions. They are always focused on the fruits to comform the salvation. This starts with themsellves (which may be beneficial at times). The real dangerous part is that it ofen extends to other people. There is such a focus on "true saving faith" and "real believers" and "dead faith" that many people that accept Lordship Salvation become fruit examiners.
These people will not admit to this, if asked. But it flows out of their discussions and actions. They are constantly questioning the true salvation of those that are not measuring up to this standard that must be there.
To me that is what makes grace so amazing. We are free in Christ. There is no more law. I don't have to "do" anything. I just have to dwell in Christ and pursue Him. I can be focused on the Vine rather than the Fruits.
I think it has alot to do with how salvation is initially presented. If you believe that you have an independent life which can receive Jesus now but hold out on the total surrender thing until later, you have an understanding that is mostly religious and far short of the 'faith of the fathers'. We need to present the gospel for what it is. I exchanged my 'mere human existence' for His 'divine nature in me union existence'. We walk in the same footprints from the vary begining because we share the same foot...we are one. When you heap the rules and 'helps' on top of the pure grace and love the relationship becomes difficult and burdensome. Jesus assured us that it is not.
ReplyDeleteMike T, brother, I heartily agree with your point about, “I think it has alot to do with how salvation is initially presented.”
ReplyDeleteFor example, my wife & I were initially introduced to Christianity and the teachings of Christ for our salvation with challenging passages such as these:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.”(Luke 14.26-27)
“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,” (John 8.31)
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.(Matthew 10:37)
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead(Philippians 3.12-13)
So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.(Luke 14.33)
“…Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him,“…You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Luke 18.18-22)
And Peter said, Behold, we have left our own things and have followed You.(Luke 18.28)
And while all these Scriptures and more are so very true; you may easily see how distorted and confused we were in our understanding of God’s true grace! It was several years before someone lovingly explained to me the these passages are “discipleship” passages and may only be fulfilled by one who is already “born from above” by God’s grace alone, through faith in the Person & finished Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, alone.(Romans 11.6; 4.5; Titus 3.4-7; Ephesians 2.8-9)
Thus, I believe, we must insure whenever we present the Good News of God’s true grace for “Eternal Salvation from the penalty of all sin” which is completely FREE and unmerited by faith alone; we must carefully distinguish this accomplishment of God's grace from the subsequent call to those who are His children by grace unto “obedient discipleship”which is so extremely COSTLY.
It is after one is eternally saved, born again, and sealed with His Spirit, that God's grace then enables/energizes us to live lives that actually glorify our Heavenly Father. (Titus 2.11-15; 2Timothy 2.1-2)
(Note: An excellent article on this serious issue, Are Disciples Born or Made? is available here:
http://gracelife.org/resources/articles.asp?id=20
This is why my wife, Linda, and I are so thankful & supportive of ministries like Grace Walk ( www.gracewalk.org) and GraceLife(www.gracelife.org)
Steve,
ReplyDeleteGreat point. As usual, most heated debates in Christian circles tend to be unnecessary, because they miss elementary and profound components of the truth of the gospel.
How about whether we should "worship" on Saturday or Sunday? Rubbish. We rested totally and continually in Christ, not on one day or another.
Thanks for your perspectives on the grace message.
gracethatworks.com
"I, personally, was set free from the confusing legalistic errors of so-called "lordship salvation" some 30+ years ago by someone lovingly explaining from Scripture how God's grace alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone is only what eternally saves me, and none of my subsequent obedience (as a disciple) or lack thereof to His sovereign Lordship is ever a relevant factor."
ReplyDeleteI agree for the most part what this paragraph says except, "or lack thereof". The only problem is that Scripture and Historic Christianity argue otherwise......You would have to do hermeneutical gymnastics of enormous portions to dismiss all the biblical passages that point to a quality of faith that works (discipleship).
Dear Steve:
ReplyDeleteI have been greatly blessed by your ministry over the years, and I thank the Lord for your many books and videos. However, I was both surprised and dismayed by your recent Blog regarding the Lordship Salvation discussion, particularly your assertion that it is both “silly” and a “school yard squabble.” Such a characterization adds nothing to a serious discussion. After reading and rereading your comments I’m wondering if you may have missed the point of the debate altogether, and thus missed a golden opportunity to forcefully reinforce the absolute need for surrender by believers to the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m saddened by well meaning commentators who object to the forceful assertion of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. We read in Romans 14:9; “For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” The sole purpose behind the Lordship message is to address the growing numbers of self described Christians who have mistakenly believed they can somehow accept Jesus Christ as their Savior while being totally unchanged in heart and lifestyle. The now pervasive influence of the no-lordship doctrine among evangelicals reflects the shallowness and spiritual poverty of the contemporary evangelical movement, and has no doubt contributed to a rise in so called “carnal christians” and “nominal christians.” A. W. Tozer wrote; “any doctrine that makes surrender to Christ’s Lordship optional is bad teaching.” Dr. Adrian Rogers stated; “when you gave your heart to Jesus Christ, that was the last independent, legitimate decision you will ever make. Jesus Christ is not like a cafeteria where you take a little saving but no lordship.” That means we must be willing to forsake all for Him. That we cling to nothing that takes precedence over Christ. The true believer will desire to do whatever He commands. Finally, let me quote one last time from Dr. Adrian Rogers who said; “You have no right to call yourself a Christian if Jesus Christ is not Lord of your life. You’re saved by believing Jesus is Lord, and yielding to that Lordship.”
M.billings
M.(?) Billings - I think the situation here is that you and I don't see the whole concept of "making Jesus Lord" in the same way. I trust that you're familiar enough with my teaching to know that I do believe in absolute surrender to Christ. I teach that constantly.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm not comfortable with in the Lordship Salvation debate is the idea that we "make" Him Lord by something we do. He IS Lord of our lives whether we recognize that fact or not. He is my Lord whether I'm sinning or praying. My behavior has nothing to do with it. He is who He is. We certainly benefit when we appropriate the reality of His Lordship in our daily lives.
The debate about whether a person is a Christian who does not recognize Him as Lord is a "silly" one to me. It just is. Nobody trusts Christs partially for salvation. Either we do or we don't.
As to Christians - it is completely possible to lapse into a fleshly action at times and not rely on Him to control our lives at that point. The fact is though, that even then, He is still Lord of our lives.
There's nothing in the Adrian Rogers quote you gave that I would disagree with.
Much of what I've seen on this debate revolves around whether a person can really be a Christian if he/she is still sinning thus failing to "make Jesus Lord." That, to me, is a silly, school-yard squabble. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and I have nothing to do with making Him be that.
Well brother, I for one, am particularly encouraged by Dr.McVey's well thought out response to "m.billings" sincere frustrations!
ReplyDeleteScripture makes it, sadly, clear that a "brother can sin unto death" (1John 5.16; 1Corinthians 11.30-32)
Would that not be true of a "brother in Christ" who is clearly not submitting to the sovereign right and rule of his living Lord, Christ Jesus, and His Lord takes Him home prematurely in grace?
If we are saved by any measure of our submission to Christ as Lord, then would that not be an addition of our good works to the finished work of Christ? (Romans 11.6; Ephesians 2.8-9))
We need to Biblically make a distinction between the reality of the New Birth "by grace through faith alone in Christ alone" and the subsequent "growth in grace" (sanctification) that should occur by grace through faith as well. Salvation is distinct from discipleship in my simple understanding of the Scriptures. Shalom.
Steve:
ReplyDeleteI debated with myself about whether or not I should post a reply to your recent response to my original comments. I have no desire to abuse your blog by prolonging a debate that, in the end, will not be resolved here. However, I did want to clarify a couple of very important points before I sign off. First I am acutely aware of, and wholeheartedly agree with, your teaching regarding the need for absolute surrender to Jesus Christ. That is why I was so startled by your conclusions when my brother suggested I read your post. Secondly, the very essence of the Lordship position is consistent with your own teaching. It has nothing to do with works. It’s about acknowledging that when you bend the knee to Jesus Christ you accept him as both Lord and Savior. You don’t make Him Lord. I’m well aware there are countless critics who attempt to link acknowledging the Lordship of Jesus Christ to works. Nothing could be further from the truth. The faith Jesus called sinners to was a repentant, submissive surrender to the truth of His Lordship. My reading convinces me that the advocates of the Lordship Salvation position were motivated by nothing less than a concern over the fact modern evangelicalism has aimed at making the gospel sound as easy and appealing as possible. As I said earlier, the Lordship message was aimed at the growing number of self described Christians whose lives are unchanged in heart and lifestyle. You conceded that you agree with Dr. Adrian Rogers, and nothing he stated is in conflict with my understanding of Lordship. For those who remain conflicted or in opposition to the Lordship message I recommend “The Gospel according to Jesus” authored by Dr. John Macarthur. His book will put the lie to anyone who still believes accepting Lordship is something “we do.” Dr. Rogers said it best when he stated, “When you gave your heart to Jesus Christ, that was the last independent, legitimate decision you will every make! This is true and complete surrender. Thanks for the opportunity to participate in this discussion.
God Bless,
M. Billings
M.- I'm beginning to think that you and I probably agree on this issue but are each understanding what the lordship salvation debate is about differently. I do believe that when we trust Christ at salvation, we do just that. We i Him 100%. We don't yield part of ourselves to Him, but all of ourselves.
ReplyDeleteI will concede to you that if there are critics of the lordship salvation debate who have linked works to the matter when that wasn't a part of the original debate, then maybe I've read those people.
As you pointed out, we may not be able to fully resolve this in the comments section of a blog. I have read many who have suggested that if there is known sin in your life, then Jesus is not Lord of your life. Some go on to say then, that if Jesus is not Lord of your life the you are not really a Christian.
It is that argument that I am disputing. If you understand the lordship debate to be something else, you and I may find that there's more agreement between us than we think. As I've already said, I don't disagree with anything you've said but I do disagree with what others I've heard and read have said about the subject.
Thanks for contributing to this discussion.
Maybe I am missing something here?
ReplyDeleteI sincerely would like to better understand this issue, or at least this other perspective
of so-called lord-ship salvation; before M.billings signs off or Dr. McVey elects to close this thread. )c:
I truly do not care to be accountable to God for teaching in error or even merely torching a theological "straw man" by misrepresenting this view as I regularly teach others how this "lordship/discipleship salvation" understanding contradicts the clear teachings of Scripture, specifically, concerning eternal salvation by grace alone through faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
M.Billings stated:
"The sole purpose behind the Lordship message is to address the growing numbers of self described Christians who have mistakenly believed they can somehow accept Jesus Christ as their Savior while being totally unchanged in heart and lifestyle."
Question(s):
1) What kind of heart & lifestyle "change" is required to validate saving faith?
A zeal for God, obedience to a list of commandments, outward appearance, etc?
2) How much lifestyle "change" is required? 90%, 70%, 50%, 2% etc.?
3) Who is required to observe this "change of heart" to confirm that authentic salvation took place?
Two or three witnesses, the individual them self, only God, etc.?
4) How long must this "lifestyle change" last for salvation to be assured?
More than a day, a year, a decade, till physical death?
Dr. John MacArthur writes:
explaining his own position in the Gospel According to Jesus, by describing "Lordship Salvation" as a gospel message that requires a faith that commits all (cf. pp. 169ff), a repentance (turning from sin) that gives up sin (cf. pp. 159ff) and a total submission to the "mastership of Christ" (cf. pp. 203ff) before eternal life is apprehended, let alone even offered.
How then do I explain to a lost person, being drawn by Christ, what the difference is between him/her as an unsaved person not to trust in turning from their own self–righteousness to trusting in the Lord Jesus as their sole means of Salvation;
and him/her as an unsaved person trying to turn from their self–will and determination to Jesus as Lord/Boss of every area of their life for salvation? Romans 10.1-3
If the first is a recognized "change" in the form of meritorious "good" works; then is the second not also a form of religious works?
Based on the interest in Dr. McVey's clear teachings on grace, and this blog, I hope I am expressing questions other readers have been wrestling with on this important discussion.
As I presently understand them; if I were to adopt MacArthur's or Tozer's view of "discipleship salvation", then I should no longer respond to an unbeliever's questioning heart with the Scriptural response of, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!"(Acts 16:31) Or by sharing the simple truth of John 3:16Romans 4:5; and simply allowing them to read Ephesians 2:8-9 would not be an option lest they be confused.
Abercrombie - yours is the most insightful, clear and concise explanation of the problem with the Lordship Salvation debate that I've seen. You've nailed it and show why the whole argument is, as I said in the beginning, a silly argument. I don't think you need to give a second thought to whether or not what you're teaching is on the mark - because if you're teaching this, you are making the gospel as clear as it can possibly be. On the other hand, the whole lordship squabble muddies the waters. As to people making the gospel "too easy," that's not possible. It IS easy, according to what Jesus said.
ReplyDeleteM. Billings - Now I know who your brother is! He's a great guy and a dear friend.
ReplyDeleteThe hard thing about these blogs is trying not to misunderstand what a person means by what they write. Based on Dave's explanation of your viewpoint on lordship salvation, you and I are still very far apart in our understanding.
I don't believe that a person goes to hell or proves to not have been a Christian because they've sinned, regardless of what that sin might be.
Thought I'd better clarify my position after talking to your brother :) No problem if two brothers disagree...whether it's brothers in Christ or brothers in mom. :)
Blessings...
Ike, you commented on the phrase ,"...the lack thereof" in my previous post.
ReplyDelete[quote]
"I agree for the most part what this paragraph says except, "or lack thereof". The only problem is that Scripture and Historic Christianity argue otherwise......You would have to do hermeneutical gymnastics of enormous portions to dismiss all the biblical passages that point to a quality of faith that works (discipleship)."[end quote]
No "hermeneutical gymnastics" here. I am simply confident of what GOD inspired the Apostle Paul to document so clearly in
Romans 4.5
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in the One who declares the ungodly righteous, his (the ungodly one's) faith in Christ alone is credited as righteousness."
(cf. Rom.10.11; 11.6; Eph.2.8-9; Titus 3.3-7)
Please understand I do not teach nor advocate that an authentic child of GOD (i.e., one saved by grace alone, thru faith alone, in the Person & Work of Christ alone) should not mature and produce by that same grace "good works" that glorify our Heavenly Father.
(see John 15; Eph.2.10; Titus 2.11-15; 3.7)
I am simply saying we cannot and should not attempt to correct the problem of false professions of salvation, nor the problem of an immature, childish, disobedient child of GOD, by subtly back-loading the Gospel of true grace with any percentage of prescribed and/or observable good works.
(John 1.12; Hebrews 12; 1Sam.16.7)
Scripture admonishes us to correct these problems by preaching and teaching the true grace of GOD more clearly. (Acts 15.7-11; Galatians 2.16-21; Gal.3.1-3; 1Peter 5.12)
Justification before GOD is by His grace alone, through our faith alone, in His gift of the Son, alone. GOD justifies the ungodly, not the godly.
And He does so freely, not out of any debt or reward that we might allow He is obligated due to our observable good works before others, no matter how well intended. (Rom.10.1-4)
I am not very smart. i tried to read these comments but i don't understand them. They confuse me. But all i know before i was born-again i was blind but now i see. And all i want to do is know Him more like it reads in Eph 1:17. That's all that matters Thank God He is revealing His amazing grace to me through your ministry
ReplyDeleteAgnes Grace
Agnes, you have found the heart of the whole matter :)
ReplyDeleteDear Steve and other beloved brothers,
ReplyDeleteThank you for opening this blog! I am blessed reading most of the postings here! I feel that in most cases we say things which are different from what we know in our heart. So, the Lordship Salvation (LS) argument is that it is not enough to believe that Jesus is a Saviour but we also must make a commitment to make Him as our Lord. Generally speaking, most Christians (who have been Christians for a while) would know that this would be one of the most contrasting point. Receiving a Saviour costs us nothing, but making someone Lord costs us everything. Now, I am not debating the theological perspective, but I just feel (and I may well be wrong) that LS people know that making Jesus as Lord is a high cost (e.g. Hard to Believe by MacArthur). In our heart (regardless the condition of our heart), we know that it is difficult and requires sacrifice. This is where the problem may start. People who embrace this truth begins to feel that the road to follow Jesus getting narrower and narrower. They begin to feel that "I did not know that it would be this difficult and complex!" But out of their embrace on the truth they keep moving on, believing that this is what is true. In short, they may well be doing this out of "unwilling" heart (I see this from my own experience; knowing that people may jump at me saying, "It's because you have not been born again or other explanation which I can accept regardless). Now as the burden and costs of following Jesus mounts up, people can see others who seem to walk in a "freeway". They soon begin to ask, "How can you live so freely? Surely, this is not salvation! Then they will start . . . Now, what I see here is not so much about the truth, but a feeling (not sure if this is a correct word) that because I suffer the cost of following Christ, I cannot accept that others do not do the same. Well, I am afraid that I have become judgemental, so I'd rather stop here. But that's my impression; I am afraid that the debate is not so much about the content, but the intent.
Thank you.
Daniel
I am glad to hear GRACE being exalted and the BIBLE being used as the foundation.
ReplyDeleteFor a while I struggled with my own salvation based upon comments of well-meaning "brethren" and scriptures taken from context. The fact was I had to have complete assurance of my salvation or I was going to chuck this whole Bible thing out the window! I could not live any other way.
For the most part I had to do the studying myself. It was Paul's epistles to the Gentile churches that cleared up the morass, thank God! I believe these scriptures of Paul are ignored by lordship salvation advocates, or are at least re-interpreted to conform to the image of "workship salvation".
This has been said before by good brethen, but I must repeat--If one does not understand the conceptual difference between Salvation and Discipleship going forward in christian growth will completely cease. We are commanded by God to
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth."
There are divisions in the word of God that MUST be studied if we are to be true un-ashamed workmen before God. There are "books" being written out there that are pure poison. May God give us the discernmet to embrace the truth!
Carrierwave~
Steve, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your thoughts, but since the word of God is the ultimate determiner of what is true, would you consider dealing with this subject by examining and responding to the relevant scriptures?
ReplyDeletequestion...i just wanted to see any input on the story of the rich young ruler in the gospels (matt 19:16-27, mark 10:17-27, Luke 18:18-30) outside of the debate that has been on this blog, i ask for you professing brothers to consider this as not a silly debate but a genuine concern for the unregenerate believer who is DEAD to CHRIST, (i.e. the rich young ruler)
ReplyDeleteso can we agree that Jesus himself acknowledge this young genuine man as an unregenerate believer?....also does not Jesus acknowledge his UPRIGHTNESS?...this is crucial because we all believe no works can save a man such as this man for example. But what prevented him from seeing and seeking the kingdom?...wealth?..money?...riches?...etc...obviously we can say yes, and obviously we would be right!....but is this not just an example that Jesus uses that strikes the heart of many unregenerate individuals??? The issue for this young man was wealth, but we can substitute wealth here for lust, fame, pride, anything outside of Christ. Jesus said but seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all of these things shall be added unto you! (Matt 6:33)
Jesus saw the young mans heart just as Jesus saw Nicodemus heart, the women at the wells heart, my heart, your heart, it (describing the heart, the essence of life in us a humans) is..it was..and has been dead outside of TRUE REGENERATING GRACE that has saved them, me and you who come to love and surrender your life to Christ. The young ruler did not fully seek God, though he was upright nevertheless and for example who were Jesus main enemies throughout his ministry??? The pharisees, they lived to be upright, they preached, they knew the laws and proclaimed to be righteous and saved. But Nicodemus a Pharisee a leader came to see him at night and believed that Jesus has something that he obviously wants but does not know how to get. Jesus does the saving and later we find Nicodemus giving everything i.e Lordship of his life to a Holy most deserving God who completely did not turn him off with some petty of silly debate...Jesus went straight to the issue of his heart Let me run your life. Be encouraged my brothers and I believe yes Jesus is the Lord of my life, why should i not proclaim it in such a way that i firmly believe He is Lord of my life by my total surrender of my actions to a Holy God that does change and can change one completely around. Though we are sinners saved by grace through faith eph 2:8-9 HALLELUJAH!!
For His Glory
Joshua, you ask some very good questions on this very challenging & significant subject!
ReplyDeleteI would like to sincerely suggest you consider the topic of so-called lord-ship
salvation; as more of a matter where the "costly sacrficial demands of discipleship" are unfortunately being merged and confused with Christ's free offer of forgiveness of all sins based entirely solely upon GOD's true grace.
Dr Charles Bing, of GraceLife Ministries, has an excellent article on "lordship/discipleship salvation" that you may find interesting and helpful in understanding how the incident with the "rich young ruler" factors into this discussion. He comments on this text are as follows,
"... The account of the rich young ruler (Matt 19:16-21/ Mark 10:17-22/Luke 18:18-23) is the key narrative used to support lordship/discipleship salvation doctrine. It was concluded that the lordship salvation interpretation errs in seeing Jesus' directions to the ruler as an explanation of how to be saved. It is better to see Jesus' directions as a pre-evangelistic attempt to bring the ruler to a recognition of his need of God's grace as a sinner. The other narrative argument from the calling of the first disciples (Matt 4:18-22/Mark 1:16-20; Luke 5:1-11) does not show that Jesus was calling them to salvation. On examination the accounts showed that discipleship was a progression of commitment for the Christian."
Dr. Hal Haller, of Luther Rice University, wrote at length on this text as well. You may enjoy reviewing his discernment and comments here: Did the Rich Young Ruler hear the Gospel According to Jesus?
http://bit.ly/rich_young_ruler_gospel
These polemics were written and presented at well attended conferences to address the same concerns & questions you recently expressed in this discussion. Let us know your thoughts? Thanks!